Beginner Limit Hold'em Poker Forums

Ongame Network $2.00/$4.00 Limit Hold'em - 4 players - View hand 569227
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Pre Flop: (1.5 SB) Hero is SB with 7 8
1 fold, BTN calls, Hero calls, BB checks

Flop: (3 SB) 7 T 5 (3 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, BTN raises, Hero 3-bets, BTN calls

Turn: (4.5 BB) K (2 players)
Hero bets, BTN calls

River: (6.5 BB) 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets, Hero calls

Final Pot: 8.5 BB
BTN shows J T
BTN wins 8.075 BB
(Rake: $1.70)

The villain is loose-passive over 20 hands. I think the 3bet may be a mistake as there is not very many draws he can have, mostly made hands I think. When he just calls down and the river comes a 5 I see nothing I beat so I guess I tried to bluff induce or something. Whole hand feels wrong.

The flop 3bet is bad. If I had more hands and was confident your opponent was passive, I would fold the flop to the raise. Against an unknown I probably call down unless some of the draws get completed.

Vs LP's I betbetbet for value.

Facing a flop raise I would call down considering how wet the board is, folding dd or the 9d.
Considering Villains river value bet I don't think you should consider them LP anymore.

I am not convinced with the preflop play, I think calling might be the worst of the three options (although I understand why you did it) - I might be wrong.

I am definitely not 3-betting this flop when a passive player raises. I would call and re-evaluate on the turn.

I don't agree that there are not many draws on the flop. There are some drawing hands he might have limped with, for example two diamonds, 89, 68.

Considering Villains river value bet I don't think you should consider them LP anymore.

but we showed weakness by checking the river when the board paired.

I'd say even LPs are capable of betting out here. They'd do it at .5/1 so it's probably more likely at 2/4.

I am not convinced with the preflop play, I think calling might be the worst of the three options (although I understand why you did it) - I might be wrong.

Unless both other players have fairly active fold buttons, I think call is by far best here. I don't like the flop 3 without a read (I mean, the dude ol the btn, he's not popping a five here and any fd has a load of equity against you).

when we 3bet this flop with a made hand, I expect we should be doing it for value. However, against the range of hands BTN might raise (discounting air) I don't think we have enough equity here.

I just picked a range quickly with the help of FlopZilla and Equilab:

TT-66,64s,ATo,A7o,KTo,K7o,QTo,Q7o,JTo,T7o,98o,64o,
AdQd,KdQd,AdJd,KdJd,QdJd,AdTd,KdTd,QdTd,JdTd,Ad9d,
Kd9d,Qd9d,Jd9d,Td9d,Ad8d,Kd8d,Qd8d,Jd8d,Td8d,9d8d,
Ad7d,Kd7d,Qd7d,Jd7d,Td7d,9d7d,8d7d,Ad6d,Kd6d,Qd6d,
Jd6d,Td6d,8d6d,7d6d,Ad5d,Kd5d,Qd5d,Td5d,7d5d,6d5d,
Ad4d,Kd4d,Td4d,Ad3d,Kd3d,Ad2d,Kd2d

(mainly diamond draws but some OESD and pairs too. removed monsters as even LP might raise them)

We have approx 35% equity against this range. I can't remember exactly but I think we're looking for 60%+ equity to start shoveling money into the pot.

Unless both other players have fairly active fold buttons, I think call is by far best here. I don't like the flop 3 without a read (I mean, the dude ol the btn, he's not popping a five here and any fd has a load of equity against you).

Perhaps you are right. I am tempted to argue that losing money like this out of position with a weakish hand is a case for folding preflop. What are we looking to hit here when we limp with 78o? How likely BB is to raise limpers is definitely a factor.

Perhaps you are right. I am tempted to argue that losing money like this out of position with a weakish hand is a case for folding preflop. What are we looking to hit here when we limp with 78o? How likely BB is to raise limpers is definitely a factor.

The hand is fine, it's far too good to throw away getting 5:1 immediate, even if bb raises a lot. It's just a question of knowing when to put in action and when not to.

I like the call PF. Mainly because BTN limped, which is definitevly a sign of a bad player we want to play with.

I think the flop 3bet is bad. The pot is super small, so protection shouldn't be your main concern. Plus you have a bad kicker and your opponent seems passive, we can heavily discount hands like 76, 5x and some flush draws.

Honestly, if your read is that he's passive, I'd fold the flop.

Perhaps you are right. I am tempted to argue that losing money like this out of position with a weakish hand is a case for folding preflop. What are we looking to hit here when we limp with 78o? How likely BB is to raise limpers is definitely a factor.

We are looking to hit a pair and to vbet BTN because he will make terrible call in a tiny pot (I'm pretty sure a limper will call a flop bet with 96 there)

We can induce on certain flops too if we have a read on the player. Passive doesn't mean he doesn't bluff. Most of the time, passive guys won't raise good pairs or draws, but will bet their entire range when you check into them.

We can stab tons of flop too, A92r or K62r are flops I stab with a lot of success.

If BB is really aggressive, then it becomes closer.

This post is strictly on pf play.

I like the call PF. Mainly because BTN limped, which is definitevly a sign of a bad player we want to play with.

This makes the case for why we should raise pf IMO, to take initiative and play the pot HU with someone we perceive to be "inexperienced" (ty EPTPE ), as opposed to playing oop vs both players, one of which (the BB) has 100% of their range. Although we can narrow BB's range slightly depending on if they check through or raise.

The hand is fine, it's far too good to throw away getting 5:1 immediate, even if bb raises a lot. It's just a question of knowing when to put in action and when not to.

I would argue that 8 high off-suit is "far too good" to fold here, 87o is near the bottom of one's total distribution of hands. Getting 5:1 is great, but when we complete pf we put ourselves in bad spots in small pots constantly. How much money are we really making in the long run completing the sb with this hand and playing oop vs 2 wide passive ranges?

It's raise or fold pf IMO, and since it's relatively close in my mind to which is better I would base my decision on btn's specific post-flop tendencies, and with a hand this weak my main concern is how FOF btn is post-flop, correlating to how often I will need to improve in order to win the pot.

Also since we're never completing with premium hands here we will be very unbalanced in this spot, which some consider unimportant at low-stakes (which I don't totally disagree with) but it is something to consider when thinking about our poker ship (see dogisheadsup series).

INHALE.

P.S.- Not going out of my way to disagree with anyone, just my thoughts.

I think raising is fine if we know that BB is a really tight player.

But I'd say it's pretty optimistic. The BB should defend with around 80% of his suited hands and a ton of offsuit combinaisons. So bloating the pot OOP, between a potentially good player and a bad one isn't something great.

In addition, if you raise PF, BB might play back a high percentage of the time on the flop because now it's worth attacking a decent size pot. In this situation, I'd rather have some sort of suited hands or decent high card value such as JTo than 8 high.

When I see someone raising super light in the SB, I'll 3bet a really wide range on the BB because he'll have to fold ton of flops, giving me the opportunity to play a nice pot against the bad player. Sometime the limper will fold too and I'll be IP against a weak range of hands.

Concerning our balance, I think we are balanced enough with hands like A5o, 98s or Q8s.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but it's definitively not a standard raise for me. Curious to hear what others players think about it

I would argue that 8 high off-suit is "far too good" to fold here, 87o is near the bottom of one's total distribution of hands. Getting 5:1 is great, but when we complete pf we put ourselves in bad spots in small pots constantly. How much money are we really making in the long run completing the sb with this hand and playing oop vs 2 wide passive ranges?

No it isn't near the bottom, its near the middle. Not sure what metric you are using to evaluate but in sheer all in equity or in playability its definitely in the middle. It's far superior to something like Q4o and I see people complete that all the time (I wouldn't).

Furthermore, you should get the mentality that you want to play pots with bad players, a LP guy just limped the button, if we have anywhere close to a halfway playable hand we should play it. I don't see enough value in raising preflop, our hand isn't that good, and it just seems optimistic being OOP, but its enough to call and get value when we make a hand, or sometimes semibluff a decent draw.

DeFox: why did you 3 bet the flop? As obadonke points out, its way too thin to be for value, its certainly an awful idea to bluff, so it just doesn't really serve a purpose. You should always ask yourself when betting or raising "is this bet for value", "is this bet a bluff", and if neither of those are really true you should not be betting. Maybe you should call down and maybe not, but that's a side story.

No it isn't near the bottom, its near the middle. Not sure what metric you are using to evaluate but in sheer all in equity or in playability its definitely in the middle. It's far superior to something like Q4o and I see people complete that all the time (I wouldn't).

I definitely haven't done enough homework in this area. I was working from the bottom (32o, 32s, 34o etc) up in my thought process, which is wrong at this point. Any good vids/series someone can recommend?