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I mean, nutrition is just different for everybody. What works for you, doesn't need to work for me but there are some fundaments you need to pay attention too.

I still think optimal is a good word to use eventhough it makes you laugh. There is an optimal way to go around your nutrition with the genetics you have, the sport that you do and the activity you have on a daily basis.

I always loved sport and did it a lot but it took me some time to recognize the importance of the right nutrition. Without the proper nutrition no work out is going to get you anywhere.

Well. I disagree. To me, powder is a great add-on, it's not a replacement. But hey, everybody must decide what works for them. If you want to have an unbalanced meal where the bulk of your intake comes from a powder, then go for it ;p

I thought it was important enough to point it out to OP that there is a different aproach than yours

I would point out that it's not an imbalanced meal depending on what is contained in the powder, and also that the body needs different nutrients at different times, so meals shouldn't necessarily be balanced anyway. To put on weight, something I struggle with as well as the OP, there simply is no better way to get the appropriate amount of protein and carbs without a powder. It replaces my breakfast, because it has protein, vitamins, and some carbs in it. The powder I take has 50grams of protein. To match that in food would take like 2 chicken breasts. For one meal. There is no basis for a claim that 12oz of chicken breast is somehow better than the powder. It is actually quite hard to eat enough protein to gain weight.

Avoid bodybuilding.com, really avoid t-nation or testosterone.net like the plague.

Agreed about t-nation or testosterone.net. These are just windows to sell steroids and supplements that a beginner won't need.

Bodybuilding.com is okey, but you have to pick and choose your information and not rely on the forums. Many on these forums seem to suffer heavily from bigorexia or have screwed macho "brah brah" attitudes, like considering anyone over 15% bf a fat porker, or anyone under 180 lbs scrawny as a twig.

As for nutrition, I don't worry about it as I'm followed by professional sports nutritionnists, and so I eat clean and enough proteins to clean bulk without worrying too much about body fat. Workouts only break down your muscles, nutrition gives you the tools to heal it, and rest/sleep the actual repair time to repair them.

There are some guides online about what is reasonable to expect for mass gain. Probably a link from here if it isn't mentioned explicitly (a while since I read).

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/whats-my-genetic-muscular-potential.html

While I agree that most people have a genetic muscular potential that will naturally hinder their growth someday if they stay natural, the downside of this information is that, well, it's a dream killer. Bodybuilding and straight training is all about reaching your physical potential and going pass it, which takes years of effort, investment, and time. That weeds out people that want to get bigger because they can say "what's the use, I will NEVER be big like my heroes and my inspiration."

The message it sends, although I am certain it is NOT the aim of this article, is that unless you are a genetic freak you are condemned to be average and should content yourself with peddling your genetic ware. That ectomorphs will remain scrawny (but slightly more muscular) twigs, and so on. Like when you reach your "optimal" potential you will magically stop growing muscle and start training for zero gains.

But how can you know if you don't reach that potential first? That's why I'm against letting this information go around and totem is as being "realistic aims". I'm sure it is, yet sometimes the minuses of overthinking this shit overpasses the pluses, and any information that can kill a would-be lifter's drive to improve him or herself should be given VERY sparingly, until he or she is ready to accept the average limits of natural bodybuilding when he reaches these potentials.

Besides, 190 pounds at 10% may not be massive in a roid gym or a bodybuilding stage, but in a bar, a night club or in the streets compared to the average joe it's friggin' huge. Remember that most people have next to idea to evaluate muscle weight compared to fat weight, and evaluate what 190 pounds at 10% looks like in real life.

The hell with these numbers, I see. Neither me nor anyone will know their potential "limit" until we reach it, then they can start worring. I use these numbers as the expected weight which, at 8-10%, I should on average start having a lot more difficulty gaining muscle mass. But it will never truly stop, only slow down to such a point that you'll have to train months to gain even 1-2 lbs of muscle mass.

Yes, it is true that you will never be above 240 lbs with a six pack naturally unless you are a freak, very tall, or on roids, and that roids are very prevalent not only on stage, sports and wrestling, but among Hollywood actors as well. At lot of the so-called "muscular" actors of Hollywood resort to steroids to gain enough muscle weight in a very short time, then work like crazy to lose fat and look ripped for an audition. One should be reasonable enough to know that these "targets" can take years if not decades of work, and the aid of both legal and illegal supplements.

However, that doesn't mean that we should kill the dreams of other because of mathematical formulas that remain to be scientifically demonstrated with a reasonable sample and rigorous controls.

Agreed about t-nation or testosterone.net. These are just windows to sell steroids and supplements that a beginner won't need.

Bodybuilding.com is okey, but you have to pick and choose your information and not rely on the forums. Many on these forums seem to suffer heavily from bigorexia or have screwed macho "brah brah" attitudes, like considering anyone over 15% bf a fat porker, or anyone under 180 lbs scrawny as a twig.

As for nutrition, I don't worry about it as I'm followed by professional sports nutritionnists, and so I eat clean and enough proteins to clean bulk without worrying too much about body fat. Workouts only break down your muscles, nutrition gives you the tools to heal it, and rest/sleep the actual repair time to repair them.

Oh I was just talking about the forums, never spent enough time on the forums to find out but that doesn't surprise me and heard similar before. I said avoid because of that, having to pick and choose so much forum or not. Must be many better forums around imo. Bigorexia has always been curious seeing so few women are into that look or even care much about 6packs over slim and fairly athletic bodies.

I ended up permanently screwing my hand (ligaments on top of wrist) from olympic weightlifting so that I can't do pushing exercises ever again with any heavy weight (or even pushups/pressups) But it may not matter, when I saw the physio for assessment recently he was talking about the long term joint damage from heavy weight training. Something I never came across from forums though did try to find out. I haven't confirmed it but he seemed to know his stuff very well. Hard enough to find reasonalbe training info let alone long term effects o. training.

Brad pilon and his business parner are the only ones who talk sense in the nutrition industry. Its not one set number its a range based on your height and weight. Its way lower than you would think since people tell you to eat over 200g.
Brad pilons philosophy is to not obsess over meals and meal timing. It was proved years ago you didnt need to eat frequent meals to avoid "ruining" your metabolism, you could eat one meal a day. This is how people have success with the warrior diet. He also reccomends a healthy balanced diet with lots of veggies, but enjoys food like pizza frequently and has a bagel with a coffee every morning when dieteting.
i went from 15 stone to 12 by eating at least 1 chocolate bar a day without thinking twice about what i was eating as long as got my minimum protein, got my veggies in and didnt go crazy on the calories. I also didnt do one bit of cardio.

Edit: lolantos read your second post its nice to see you read his blog? bradpilon.com? I think thats what you was on.
He really simplifys everything and its turned me into a person that hates when people say dont skip breakfast or you will get fat or you cant eat carbs or cake will make you fat. For pure fat loss the only thing that matters is calories in calories out, you must eat less calories than your body uses for energy. If you eat 1,000 calories a day of cake you would lose weight. Obviously it wouldnt be healthy because you are getting no nutrients or vitamins or minerals but that aside you would lose weight.
I kind of preach about him because i strugged for over a year trying to lose weight not watching my calories but eating super clean 6 meals a day with no sweets of any sort ever, its no way to live.
Eat what you enjoy and moderate it. Eat less move more.

I second this and everything said below the website link is true. Look through the stickies in the forums though there is a ton of extremely good information on that site and many very well know and knowledgeable people. Just got to wade through some BS on occasion.

As for starting strength as previously mentioned in this thread; I am on it now and it is working very well. I would recommend it and it gets results. Bodybuilding has a sticky for an FAQ breakdown of the program.

Try these sites as well, all these people do their homework no BS or "broscience" as it is referred to in some cases

Lyle McDonald: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/
Alan Arragon: http://www.alanaragonblog.com/
Martin Berkhan: http://www.leangains.com/

I am sure there are more but those are the 3 I have discovered so far that I get a lot of good information from.

There isnt anything more brosciency than Leangains . People really need to learn how to read statistics and other research. Martin Berkhan bases his articles around studies perfomed over 2-4 weeks with 3-7people. Hardly representative! And he has always ignored questions about cortisol which is leangains biggest problem imo. Anyway, I can understand why people are drawn to it. Most people are always looking for a magic bullet, that extra edge. I was like that for 2-3 years myself.

Anyway, as far as nutrtion goes. My best sources are Layne Norton and Lyle McDonald. As far as strength training goes it works fantastic with high volume programs most of the year, such as Sheiko or Dietmar. Occasionally switch to a high intensity low volume program for 3-6 weeks, like westside, when you want to peak, but sheiko and dietmar also has own peaking phases.

For bodybuilding I've had my best results with personal training from Tudor Bompa insitute. Allthough I'm training Layne Norton's PHAT routine that i've customized for my own and my diet this year and I love it. Im in a calorie deficit so I dont know how it does on a bulking routine but the volume is similar to what i've had success with before so I can imagine it works great for that purpose.

Fitness gurus,

Apologies for derailing this thread very slightly. I have an on topic query though. As a warrior of the keyboard I could do with being a bit fitter. When I say fit, personally, I mean just that - physically fit. I am not interested in bodybuilding or getting ripped or whatever. I'm fine with incidental muscle gain from working out, I could probably do with some, but that's as far as I want to go with that. I'm much more interested in being more athletically fit (more aerobically fit? Whatever the correct nomenclature would be). I don't want to be as fit as professional sportsman or anything like that.

Lets say I wanted to achieve this in my house. What kind of work out do I need, what kind of equipment do I need?

The answer might be: Go do your own research. But, I'm sure someone would just love to answer. It's tough to wade through all the information available - it's dense and filtering the good from the bad is no easy task for the uninitiated and I have low motivation to do so given my modest goals. I've had "hire personal trainer" on the to-do list for some time, but that probably comes with another entire set of potential pitfalls.

Training at home, inavacuum I hear great things about P90X

I will look into that. I considered doing Charles Bronson's (the one in prison, not the other one) work out as it requires no equipment. But I fear it may kill me.

Are you heavily overweighted without any form of excersise? You might die

but will also reborn pretty strongly. Like a warrior, and not only on the keyboard!

just do something. Don't get into this 'starting to get started'

I will look into that. I considered doing Charles Bronson's (the one in prison, not the other one) work out as it requires no equipment. But I fear it may kill me.

You might want to look into shaun T's insanity workout, all you need is your body, no free weights or pull up bar needed like in p90x and it seems to fit your goals more.

p90x, insanity, etc all wastes of money, imo.
swim/run make a routine of pushups/chinups/dips/etc and go on a diet would be just as good / better in most cases.

seriously if you don't want to weight-train you should just pick up activities like swimming/a sport/running and do them a few times a week.

weight training is pretty awesome and will give you a lot of functional strength, and contrary to what you may think you're not going to accidentally get "too big" if you lift weights.

Definitely not adverse to using weights as part of the work out, just didn't want to have big gains as a goal. Agree re swimming, the only problem is motivation to go the pool as I don't have one here. Motivation is probably my biggest obstacle.

well if you don't have the motivation to start it pretty much doesn't matter what anyone recommends. if you decide you'd be happier getting in shape I would recommend going the most optimal route (not p90x/insanity) since getting the best results is a good way to keep you motivated.