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I can't figure out what it is that makes 57s a call. If thats a call, shouldn't be a hand like Q3s a call too? and a J4s? Wouldn't you end up never folding a to a 3bet?

In my opinion and i wouldn't think i'm alone on this, hands like q3s and j4s suck. I mean most of your value from these hands is going to be from hitting the occasional flush and donking the occasional 2 pair, tpwk hands. You will burn a lot of money playing this way. so many more outs with a suited connector. i.e. flush and straights

now that said, the better you get the cards won't matter as much and you can still make these hands profitable because it's not all about the cards, but no need to get ahead of yourself right now.

Playing for stacks happens alot less often than playing for 1 or 2 streets of betting no matter 100bb or 500bb and that's my point. When we don't play for stacks winning the pot is important as well and contributes to the the overall EV.

Other part it's a matter of opinion and goes other way around as well. On 332 Q3 is way less dominated than 255 or 277 with 57 etc, QQ2 is more dominated. so in total Q3 with trips is about the same dominated factor if we want to count kickers.

Not arguing with you on the point about showdown value. I'm just saying when you showdown a pair of Q or whatever it's going to be for the same amount more or less regardless of stack sizes. There are going to be more boards where you can comfortably play for stacks with 75s which is why it's a better hand to have when you get deeper.

Both 55x and 77x boards are less prone to having your trips outkicked. 33x is pretty hidden, but its hard ot get much money in good in QQx.

Snappie, when deep, hands like 57s, pp's, axs, etc become more valuable than hands like ak, aa, kk because top pair becomes less important. You want nut hands like straights, flushes, sets, boats. It's pretty much the same reason it sucks to have aa and kk when there are 5 callers in the hand rather than having good multiway pot hands like suited connectors etc because you can hit the nuts.

AA and KK don't lose any value because they make sets. I don't know where people got this idea that 22 makes sets and KK doesn't.

AK does lose value but it's still probably more valuable than 75s or 67s.

obv aa and kk make sets and i'm not saying to fold them or they aren't still good hands. my point was, when deep and/or multiway top pair hands become less desirable and 75s and 67s become more desirable because you can hit nut hands rather than top pair only hands which are obv much more solid when you are sticking 400bb in the middle.

and you took my use of ak, aa, kk way too far. it was more to mean having top pair.

Quote from Sauce1234: "The single best class of hands to 3bet are hands with a lot of implied odds, like suited connectors."

He doesn't really explain why, though. I guess it's because you can barrel more with better equity with those hands.

Quote from Sauce1234: "The single best class of hands to 3bet are hands with a lot of implied odds, like suited connectors."

He doesn't really explain why, though. I guess it's because you can barrel more with better equity with those hands.

It is a myth that suited connectors have implied odds.

It is a myth that suited connectors have implied odds.

its not a myth. All hands have both implied and reverse implied odds. People just way overestimate their implied odds on most hands.

Snappie, when deep, hands like 57s, pp's, axs, etc become more valuable than hands like ak, aa, kk because top pair becomes less important.

This can be a little misleading. Basically, if we were to play for stacks (vs someone we don't have a sicko dynamic with) the greater the SPR, the more we want hands that make the nuts.

This can be a little misleading. Basically, if we were to play for stacks (vs someone we don't have a sicko dynamic with) the greater the SPR, the more we want hands that make the nuts.

exactly

its not a myth. All hands have both implied and reverse implied odds. People just way overestimate their implied odds on most hands.

You know what I meant.

how do we overestimate imploed odds?

how do we overestimate imploed odds?

We have not done the math of how often we will actually have a strong hand vs villain's range.

We have not done the math of how often we will actually have a strong hand vs villain's range.

yeah this. More specifically, they need to get paid x amount when they hit, and better players aren't going to let them get paid x unless its a really rare megacooler like set vs straight.

Also the flush is the most obvious draw so a lot of times when you make the 7 hi flush or whatever, it's pretty hard to get action from worse hands.