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Figuring out health stuff has to be the biggest pain in the ass, much more so than game theory

Can anyone link me to the one(or a few) most convincing article/journal on high-fat diets?

Fruit is complex carb so you can basically eat them as much as you want and not get fat, even 3000-4000kcal per day.

Statements like this are what are causing people to react so viscerally, MikaYoda. They aren't grounded in any science whatsoever and are the poker equivalent of someone saying "when I have Aces I never win so I just don't play them."

Fruit is fine in moderation - especially when you time the eating of it right. However, it cannot be metabolized directly and excess fruit-based energy stores are converted to fat by the liver. It certainly can not be eaten to the extent of 3000-4000cal/day without serious negative health implications:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18395287 (link between fatty liver disease & excess fructose consumption)

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/28/health/28zuger.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6vpFV6Wkl4

Rob

Figuring out health stuff has to be the biggest pain in the ass, much more so than game theory

Can anyone link me to the one(or a few) most convincing article/journal on high-fat diets?

Take a look at the youtube video I just linked to - you can pull plenty of resources by looking at the studies/information Taubes cites.

Rob

934 MB on dial-up, here we go!

oooooooh it's gone down from 3 days to 2 days

Also, how bad is beer really? What should I be limiting to. Is it just a no go? Any alternatives?

Depends if you're doing it for the taste or primarily to get a buzz on. One beer has anywhere from like 110-150 calories where a shot of vodka has like 70.

One reason most cells prefer fats to glucose as an energy source is that fats burn "cleanly", while glucose, when it is metabolized for energy, produces reactive oxygen species (ROS) that can damage or destroy cells.

Times for glucose: intense workout to replenish glycogen storage, when people have chronic infections and need ROS

interesting comment. can you elaborate on the ROS and infection connection?

interesting comment. can you elaborate on the ROS and infection connection?

Do you do something with nutrition as a job/study nawhead, or are you just highly interested?

Figuring out health stuff has to be the biggest pain in the ass, much more so than game theory

Can anyone link me to the one(or a few) most convincing article/journal on high-fat diets?

http://deucescracked.com/forums/4-General-Discussion/topics/482841-Low-Carb-High-Fat-eating/posts/4289001--quote-Oh-sorry-I-figured

skip to 3.

Do you do something with nutrition as a job/study nawhead, or are you just highly interested?

just interesting. i have no credentials, not even a N.D..

Personally I'm not into studies and things like that, I just prefer to trust what I see.

I know that when you do X, then Y happens, but I am not sure why it is so and I'm not sure if science has figured it out or if I can trust the sources, but fact is that when X then Y. I'm not fully interested in the process.

aw jeez. i pass. i already donated in the 9/11 thread this week.

interesting comment. can you elaborate on the ROS and infection connection?

Our immune system utilizes macrophages that can metabolize glucose to produce ROS which are used to kill pathogens.
Under normal circumstances our immune system doesn't need to consume much glucose, but people with chronic infections may need extra glucose to produce those ROS's

Our immune system utilizes macrophages that can metabolize glucose to produce ROS which are used to kill pathogens.
Under normal circumstances our immune system doesn't need to consume much glucose, but people with chronic infections may need extra glucose to produce those ROS's

Aren't ROS responsible for all sorts of aging/cancer stuff?

Aren't ROS responsible for all sorts of aging/cancer stuff?

I am not sure if they are responsible for those instances or how much they contribute to them, but they can be destructive within our body damaging "healthy" cells if not pathogens

Our immune system utilizes macrophages that can metabolize glucose to produce ROS which are used to kill pathogens.
Under normal circumstances our immune system doesn't need to consume much glucose, but people with chronic infections may need extra glucose to produce those ROS's

for healthy people, are we talking about hormesis. is that the reason to eat some carbs?

what kind of chronic infections are we talking about? what about just being sick with a cold or flu? would we want more ROS then?

but i can't find a link between ROS and carbs.

When I'm on a run, bike ride, etc., I'm still gobbling carbs every 20-30 minutes to keep my blood sugars balanced and keep my energy levels in check - but once I'm done with the workout, I'm back to eating normal, more or less (exceptions for glycogen refueling windows, etc). The combination of the two is, IMHO, significantly better for me (sample size warnings) than simply saying "eat what you want and exercise more" or "never eat carbs."

Rob

what is the purpose of restoring glycogen after exercise? what kind of performance effects does it have?

Inadequate carbohydrate intake following prolonged exercise does not increase muscle soreness after 15 minutes of downhill running.

Effects of dietary carbohydrate on delayed onset muscle soreness and reactive oxygen species after contraction induced muscle damage.

for healthy people, are we talking about hormesis. is that the reason to eat some carbs?

what kind of chronic infections are we talking about? what about just being sick with a cold or flu? would we want more ROS then?

but i can't find a link between ROS and carbs.

I was just stating that in the metabolism of glucose in the body, excess can lead to more ROS in our bodies. I was not really arguing for or against. As far as infections a wide range of bacterial and fungal, not viral.

what is the purpose of restoring glycogen after exercise? what kind of performance effects does it have?

Inadequate carbohydrate intake following prolonged exercise does not increase muscle soreness after 15 minutes of downhill running.

Effects of dietary carbohydrate on delayed onset muscle soreness and reactive oxygen species after contraction induced muscle damage.

This is the best I could find (summary, not clinical, but provides resources):

http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/3794/is-the-glycogen-restoration-window-real

Keep in mind that when I'm saying that I'm gobbling carbs every 20-30 minutes, that's for a 3-6 hour bike ride, or a 2 hour run, and is during the activity. It's impossible for me to do otherwise as a type-1 diabetic without dying or completely depleting my body of insulin, both of which are suboptimal.

I generally set my window at 1hr for periods of exercise when I'll need additional fuel sources. I also do a fair number of workouts that will be spaced out by several hours, with 2 (3 yesterday) in the same day. The study you linked was related to DOMS observations - while DOMS is certainly a consideration the main reason I would advocate refueling is increased performance when you don't have long rest periods for natural refueling of glycogen stores.

I've found that eating during this window (usually a 2:1:1 C:H:F ratio - sometimes more protein and less fat) seems to lessen overall muscle soreness and help with performance in subsequent activities. I haven't seen controlled studies of non-refueling vs refueling in this, but have seen studies of CHO vs CHO+Protein, where CHO+Protein shows a non-significant improvement: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19108717

Anyway - I'm sure that it could be anecdotal (and could just be related to proper nutrition in general), but I don't live my entire life as a controlled experiment. What I do know is that if you're going to be munching on carbohydrates, the best time to do it will be within an hour or so of significant physical activity. And since, at the end of the day, I still enjoy carbs - I just am careful with them - this has been an appropriate strategy for me.

Rob