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Total vegan propaganda as far as I'm concerned.

Yup. Correlation /= Causation. There's a million things those monks do differently that could be contributing factors, which funnily enough seems to be one of the biggest criticisms of the China study.

Yup. Correlation /= Causation. There's a million things those monks do differently that could be contributing factors, which funnily enough seems to be one of the biggest criticisms of the China study.

yeah prolly no stress!

I haven't made it through the whole thread yet so I hope I'm not rehashing stuff that's been talked about but here's my current (likely unsustainable) strategy.

On day 12 of p90x trying to get back into reasonable shape. Was active in sports through college but stopped since. When I started p90x I was 206lbs, just under 6'4" in height. Goal is mostly just body recomposition...less fat more muscle. I don't really care much about a number on a scale, just overall better health and athleticism.

Since I rarely do anything half assed, I didn't want to do this half assed either so my approach to diet has been low carb, low fat, high protein. I'm almost certainly also on a calorie deficit (if I had to guess, 1200-1500 calories of food per day and maybe less. A typical day of food would look something like:

Breakfast: 2 pieces of fruit or whole grain english muffin with peanut butter
Lunch: Salad and 2 fish filets (usually salmon or talapia)
Snack: 2 hardboiled eggs
Dinner: 2 chicken breasts or pieces of steak and veggies
Night: Perhaps another salad with hard boiled egg or a couple apples

Also taking multivitamin, vitamin D, Calcium, and melatonin at night to fall asleep and keep a reasonable sleep schedule.

So far the only junk I've had is a couple pieces of pizza during the super bowl, the rest has been veg or meat. This is very rare for me as I've basically been a junk food maniac for the past couple years.

How badly am I f-king myself up with this diet and doing high intensity p90x workouts?

Yeah I mean I'm definitely not saying it's not meat, but saying this supports non-meat is just as reasonable as saying this supports non-cell towers/aluminium containing deodorant.

How badly am I f-king myself up with this diet and doing high intensity p90x workouts?

Its hard to say, but I made this same mistake when I first started P90x. It correlated with my worst month of poker in 5 years. I definitely think it affected my mental performance. I wish I had known more about nutrition and the Paleo diet at the time.

If you want to gain muscle you need to be eating a surplus of calories. You cant lose fat and gain muscle at the same time.

Ditch the muffin at breakfast for some healthy fat like avocado or coconut milk. Other meals look good, just eat more of it. (and maybe some bacon)

I haven't made it through the whole thread yet so I hope I'm not rehashing stuff that's been talked about but here's my current (likely unsustainable) strategy.

that's definitely unsustainable, but you'll prob lose weight pretty fast.

LCHF's major difference to traditional diets is replacing the fear of fat with the fear of carbs. this shift is based on current clinical trial evidence which shows that fat, esp. saturated animal fat, is not harmful the way we thought it was before, and that carbs drive insulin drives fat accumulation.

a lot of people can't/don't want to be convinced of this shift for one reason or another so rely on unsustainable caloric restriction cycles on low fat (regardless of carb or protein intake) meals to lose weight. but caloric restriction tells our bodies we're in a starvation environment, so when the diet/famine is over, we (our body tells us to) eat more to compensate.

LCHF is not a "diet." don't restrict calories. don't signal your body to think it's in a starvation environment which leads to rebound eating. eliminate sugar and simple carbs (esp. bread, pasta, rice), don't be afraid of fat, don't count calories, then eat until full.

weight-loss is simply a by-product of the body using its fat stores properly again in the absence of high blood sugars.

(also, you can also add more carbs into your diet if engaging in endurance sports.)

How badly am I f-king myself up with this diet and doing high intensity p90x workouts?

Based on what I've read and have been talking about with our trainer, I'd say somewhere between a lot and a decent amount. You won't kill yourself but you will see results and then burn out quickly.

I'd recommend upping the fat intake, lowering carb intake with the exception of within 30 minutes of P90x. I'd also recommend buying yourself a Blendtec or a Vitamix to help craft some great snacks - it's been a lifesaver for me.

Here's a general outline of what I'd recommend (similar to how I eat, so take the bias FWIW):

Breakfast - 3 eggs w/a vegetable (usually braised Kale or sauteed Spinach)

Lunch - Pulled pork/carnitas salad. Usually 6oz meat + salad fixings.

Snack - Green protein smoothie. 2 scoops chocolate whey (no sugar) with Kale, coconut milk, and 2tbs almond butter & flaxseed. Blended in a good blender otherwise it wouldn't be very smoothie-like.

Pre/post workout - Depends on the workout, but because I'm a type-1 diabetic I usually have to intake carbohydrates before/after to keep my blood sugars balanced. Usually this is in the 30 minute window for glycogen restoration post-workout.

Dinner - Lots of different things - usually mixing a fat or two, protein, and vegetables. We make lots of things with Cauliflower, avocado, etc.

If you ever want to ping me about any of this on AIM I'm happy to chat - Kate and I are training for Ironman which has her seeing a nutritionist, and I've studied a lot of nutrition over the past 17 years from being a type-1. I've finally settled on a lifestyle that has me feeling great, body composition is changing, energy levels are great and blood sugars are great, so I'm not looking to change it much. I'd say we eat like this 80-90% of the time and the other 20% of the time don't worry and just enjoy ourselves.

Unlike full paleo people, I don't have anything against beans, and will eat black beans, lentils, and other beans occasionally - probably 1-2x/wk. I don't use them as a primary protein or carbohydrate source, but haven't noticed anything negative from them, and they're necessary in some Mexican dishes we make. I eat more whey protein than I should, just out of convenience for a busy lifestyle, and I know that's not ideal, but I don't think I'm in a position to change that much currently.

Make the changes gradually, and you'll have a sustainable lifestyle change rather than a diet, and that should be the goal. It's a great way to eat and really is enjoyable while providing results.

Rob

and 2tbs almond butter & flaxseed

Read this as 2lbs, my Rob respect sky rocketed.

WoT,

Rob pretty much nailed this. Low fat + low carb + high protein means you're not really getting much of any energy, and are going to hate yourself and your lifestyle really fast. The biggest keys to all of this imo are

1) gradual change
2) change that you can sustain

The super basic recommendations I had earlier in this thread are here:

- Eat stuff that was alive (meat, fruit, veggies, dairy, nuts)
- Stick to the outer ring of the grocery store (generally follows the first point) with the possible exception of frozen versions of products from the first point
- Eat as little processed food as possible
- Rice is fine. Especially if you work out a bunch
- When you do eat processed/bad food, do it right, enjoy it, DO NOT DWELL ON IT, and move on. In other words, if you're going to eat a dessert, don't eat low-carb ice cream or paleo brownies or whatever. Eat goddamn pot de creme or something.

I'm also happy to talk more about this stuff if you want. I might be nicer than the guys in H+F on 2p2

great posts, thanks guys. I would like to get to something a bit more reasonable like rob outlined.

Have you guys read much about intermittent fasting? Some people pointed me to this site: http://www.leangains.com/2010/04/leangains-guide.html

I haven't read the studies he's linked in detail, but his approach is that basically the starvation mode stuff is total BS unless you go without eating for days on end. He's big on IF.

Thoughts on taking Rob's approach but using IF method?

Also another general question, should I be staying away from fruits like apples and oranges? They are pretty high sugar/calorie right? Should I save those for post workout only?

That diet is pretty restrictive WOT, you should burn something like in the mid 2000 calories a day range at 6'4'' 206 lbs. so you could sit on the couch all day eating more than 2000 calories and not gain weight.

Check out Sparkpeople.com it has a pretty cool calorie counting app. its money on the smart phone and helps fine tune calorie intake. You sound pretty thin though I mean 200 lbs isn't big at 6'4'' so just maintaining your weight and increasing muscle should produce solid results.

There's a million things those monks do differently that could be contributing factors

Sounds eerily familiar

great posts, thanks guys. I would like to get to something a bit more reasonable like rob outlined.

Have you guys read much about intermittent fasting? Some people pointed me to this site: http://www.leangains.com/2010/04/leangains-guide.html

I haven't read the studies he's linked in detail, but his approach is that basically the starvation mode stuff is total BS unless you go without eating for days on end. He's big on IF.

Thoughts on taking Rob's approach but using IF method?

Also another general question, should I be staying away from fruits like apples and oranges? They are pretty high sugar/calorie right? Should I save those for post workout only?

To put it in poker terms, I think IF is a bit FPSy for you at the moment. Stick to P90x/anything plus better eating habits for a month or two, then adjust as needed. I'll also put my tiny shill here for lifting weights - I think lifting heavy things and getting stronger is actually one of the best ways to lose weight.

Fruits are fine imo as long as you aren't eating like 12 apples/day. Yeah they have sugar but they also have fiber/water/other filling things that keep you from eating tons of them. But do stay far away from fruit juice.

To put it in poker terms, I think IF is a bit FPSy for you at the moment. Stick to P90x/anything plus better eating habits for a month or two, then adjust as needed. I'll also put my tiny shill here for lifting weights - I think lifting heavy things and getting stronger is actually one of the best ways to lose weight.

Fruits are fine imo as long as you aren't eating like 12 apples/day. Yeah they have sugar but they also have fiber/water/other filling things that keep you from eating tons of them. But do stay far away from fruit juice.

ok thanks!

Sounds eerily familiar

once again, the difference between observational studies and clinical studies

China Study is an observational study. it's half-science. it's a hypothesis, nothing more. the majority of observational studies have invalid hypotheses (this isn't bad in itself however, science is full of invalid hypotheses) due to hidden variables.

LCHF is based on clinical studies. it's full science. it's testing of a hypothesis for validity and repeatability. it's not "TRUTH," but it's the best we have.

variables are controlled as best as possible in a clinical study through randomization of subjects so that one group isn't doing something different from another group.

in an observational study, variables cannot be controlled like this. those who voluntarily eat diet X probably do a bunch of other things (hidden, confounding variables) we might not know about. your objections are mostly in reference to the major weakness of observational studies.