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Poker Video: Misc/Other by Joe Tall (Micro/Small Stakes)

Really enjoyed this, looking forward to more.

Also Joe you seemed to not put too much consideration into the "stay in crazy game" scenario towards the situation Tommy created of assuming it's a normal game and someone offered you $50 each hour you stayed would stay? Seems to simplify it to a much easier decision where you won't get caught up in the "but it was a crazy game!" thing.

Time Link to 00:12:30

This general situation of when to speak up when a mistake is being made is really something I've thought about a ton over the years, and had my opinion changed a few different times. I have mostly been of the mindset that it is all players' responsibility to make sure that the mechanics of the game are done correctly (so this means that the blinds are right, that people put in the right # of chips in a limit game, that the dealer awards the pot correctly, etc). But I have had multiple different people that I highly respect that are long time live cash game players that disagree when the situation involves a guy who basically misreads his own hand. Their opinion is twofold - 1) that part of poker is knowing what you have, and just because this guy got lucky that his other cards make him a winning hand, he doesn't even know it, so its basically like a tree falling in the woods when nobody can hear it, 2) you have no actual responsibility to enforce the mechanics unless you want to, and you are creating a reverse freeroll for yourself where people will be upset with you and you have absolutely nothing to gain by speaking up, other than the moral highground, which is kinda selfish.

So now I basically think its a pretty big gray area, and I would still be inclined to speak up if a clearly inexperienced player is making a mistake in a game he isn't too familiar with, because I think its important that new players are treated fairly, and possibly even with 'kid gloves', but that I don't fault anyone for not speaking up.

Really enjoyed this, looking forward to more.

Also Joe you seemed to not put too much consideration into the "stay in crazy game" scenario towards the situation Tommy created of assuming it's a normal game and someone offered you $50 each hour you stayed would stay? Seems to simplify it to a much easier decision where you won't get caught up in the "but it was a crazy game!" thing.

I think Joe's right to stay, his ~$50 hourly is far from constant. His hourly in that crazy game might be $100, $200 or more. While the hourly expectation sitting with the 4 reg/props is possibly going to be less than $50 especially after the rake.*

I'd stay in the crazy game and spend less time playing when the game isn't look good (though I appreciate you have to do your bit to get the game going, and not leave straight after the big fish busts out).

80/20 principle applies big time in poker.



* I don't know much of live split pot games so I may be wrong there. It's def the case at online SSNL and MSNL though.
I'm not saying bumhunt to extremes, but personally Id rather spend 1hr playing good games and 3hrs family time than 4hrs playing reg filled games for the same total profit.

Time Link to 00:14:00

hey guys

i rarely post in threads but this time i felt like i had something to say and its this.

i strongly disagree with what Tommy said about it not being right or wrong to mention the mistake as far as im concerned you should always do what you see as the right thing whether as a result of your decision the game is made better or worse that isn't the point.

if you were in a park and you saw some kids bullying a kid would you intervene?

what if you saw a women being harassed by a man in the street and she was all alone would you say something?

i think in both circumstances and fell free to correct me if im wrong you would do something i know that i would.then why not here someone is going to suffer due to you not saying something weather it is your responcibility or not isnt the question its a question of morals and being a person of integrity

a final point i would like to make is that as a poker player i get shit from what i do for a living all the time from girls at bars, well meaning family members or just people that i met in coffee shops that see me as a degen with no morals that takes money of others with no regard money or a hard days work or sometimes im a gambling addict.

i dont want to make this about me but i fell that all poker players should be aware that every time a black friday, ub ,or girah scandal story comes out its just another reason for the general public to see us all as dishonest and lazy. I for one will do every thing that i reasonably can to insure that the image of poker online and live is improves as much as possible and try and be the change that i want to see in the world.

DeathDonkey

you have absolutely nothing to gain by speaking up, other than the moral highground, which is kinda selfish.

I guess that everyone has to decide for themselves, but I feel that being moral and ethical is pretty important. If the rule is that "cards speak" and the dealer misreads them, I have the obligation to correct him/her.
Also, if I happen to catch a flashed card, I always speak up. There is nothing wrong, in fact it's a good thing, to having the moral high ground.

Hi Barry, your reply and the one before it kind of speak to my point about why I have gone back and forth on the issue many times in my poker life. People I respect such as yourself have called it an 'obligation', but then other people I also respect have called it a 'decision'. In my mind the jury is still out.

Great video, guys, the first part really got me thinking.

I've never ever played live games, so my point of view may be way off on this subject, but I'm gonna share anyway, just for the sake of argument and to see other people's thoughts on the situation.

My first question in these situations are "How would I feel, if I would be the victim in this case?" Of course, there are two victims here, either the player is, who doesn't get half the pot, either the player, who doesn't scoop. Now if I'm the player, who gets half instead of 0, I'm happy of course. If I'm the player that gets half instead of the scoop, I feel bad, but not as bad, since by the rules it's the fair way. So I feel much less badly when I'm the player who looses the money rightfully, then I feel good winning the money that I am rightful too. Some kind of an "eye for an eye" situation for me. I'd be a happier person if everybody would correct the dealer's mistake, then if no one would.

Then the question of a person mistakenly mucking the hand for half pot came up, and I said no way I'm gonna tell him, that he's entitled for half the pot. At first sight that went against my previous thought, since in both cases the player who didn't get the rightful amount made a mistake. But I figured it out.

My main point is, that the dealer, despite being a human creature, should make no mistakes. In a perfect environment dealers don't make mistakes. So if we want to create a perfect environment, we should correct the mistakes that wouldn't be there if it would be perfect, but shouldn't correct those, that would still be there (like a player's mistake of his own).

Now that's maybe just the online poker mentality speaking, since Scenario 1 doesn't ever happen there, but Scenario 2-like situations do. However, I still think that mistakes made by the environment should be corrected (even though the player made a mistake of not realizing his entitlement for half the pot), and those that the environment has nothing to do, should be left alone. Maybe I'm a failure as a human being, but I'd still correct the mistake if I'd be the one scooping not rightfully.

However I can respect the opinion of others, since I have no right to say that my truth is the truth in this situation, so I don't think bad things about guys that state otherwise, I accept it, and live with it.

What do you think? Am I way out of line here?

I'm not doing much with poker these days, but I still check in to the site from time to time just to see what's going on. When I saw this content I immediately downloaded and listened to the MP3, and it was all I hoped it would be.

I don't know what your plans are going forward with this series, but I do have one little request: Never stop making these.

Thanks for giving us a peek at your poker talk, gentlemen.

hey guys

i rarely post in threads but this time i felt like i had something to say and its this.

i strongly disagree with what Tommy said about it not being right or wrong to mention the mistake as far as im concerned you should always do what you see as the right thing whether as a result of your decision the game is made better or worse that isn't the point.

if you were in a park and you saw some kids bullying a kid would you intervene?

what if you saw a women being harassed by a man in the street and she was all alone would you say something?

i think in both circumstances and fell free to correct me if im wrong you would do something i know that i would.

These are situations where a law is being broken and/or there is bodily harm. They are much different than a poker game.

then why not here someone is going to suffer due to you not saying something weather it is your responcibility or not isnt the question its a question of morals and being a person of integrity

a final point i would like to make is that as a poker player i get shit from what i do for a living all the time from girls at bars, well meaning family members or just people that i met in coffee shops that see me as a degen with no morals that takes money of others with no regard money or a hard days work or sometimes im a gambling addict.

i dont want to make this about me but i fell that all poker players should be aware that every time a black friday, ub ,or girah scandal story comes out its just another reason for the general public to see us all as dishonest and lazy. I for one will do every thing that i reasonably can to insure that the image of poker online and live is improves as much as possible and try and be the change that i want to see in the world.

That's great, but really doesnt have too much to do with the showdown of a hand and the split second of when a dealer might be making a mistake.

DeathDonkey



I guess that everyone has to decide for themselves, but I feel that being moral and ethical is pretty important. If the rule is that "cards speak" and the dealer misreads them, I have the obligation to correct him/her.
Also, if I happen to catch a flashed card, I always speak up. There is nothing wrong, in fact it's a good thing, to having the moral high ground.

I'm still on the fence here with Chris. Flash-cards are in the category, yes, and I have always been on the side of speaking up.

Great video.

Especially liked the part about the discipline to not play when you're not in the mood. Rigid discipline is not the be end of all, gotta listen to your intuition.

Could you define the difference between "recreational" and "part time"?
I have a feeling that you kind of talked down the recreational player. I enjoy a good poker game, I don't play as a professional, it gives me recreation, but that sure doesn't mean I play bad.

If Tommy Angelo would offer me 50$ just to "sit there", I would take it, but it's a threshold problem, probably. The enjoyment of the game plays a big factor, especially if it's a wild game and that might be worth an extra 50$, so that Joe would sit in a wild game for free, but would have doubts on taking the sure 50$. I enjoy poker and analyzing poker so much, that I would probably also sit and play if I had some sort of assurance that I would break even or make very little. Tommy characterizing it as "poker junkie" has some negative connotations with it. It isn't a bad thing of staying up all night doing what you love! I even made it into my job -> I became an astronomer.

To question 1, I feel like it is correct to speak up. There are many excuses we all use to rationalize the fact that we may or may not do what is fair, but those excuses are merely just that, excuses. You can hear the rationalization tone in Joe's voice when he is defending the decision to not speak. When you feel the need to defend yourself, that's a tell imo that your gut/conscience is telling you it was wrong to not speak up.

As Tommy pointed out, we all have our personal lines. If it's our mother, then we speak up. If it's our enemy, then maybe we don't. To me, those lines are just rationalizations and blur the difference between what is right/fair and what is wrong.

Some factors mentioned:

1. Our personal feelings toward the person getting screwed. Do we like them? Do we hate them?
2. Our professional feelings toward the person getting screwed. To quote one of Tommy's stories, if the fish wins more by the mistake, does it result in someone saying, "well that didn't hurt the game any."
3. New to the Casino. New to the table. New guy in general.
4. Unsure if what we saw was accurate. Maybe there was no mistake.
5. It's each player's responsibility to know what they have.
6. You are creating a reverse freeroll for yourself where people will be upset with you and you have absolutely nothing to gain by speaking up.

Every single one of those factors is in some way an excuse.

1 - Our personal feelings toward someone CLEARLY should not determine what is right and wrong.
2 - This is clearly a selfish motive and should not determine what is right and wrong.
3 - I totally understand the social implications here, but again, this should not decide it.
4 - This one is one of the stronger excuses because you might just be wrong in what you saw. I feel like it doesn't hurt that much to speak up and verify though as personally I wouldn't mind if someone did that just to ensure fairness.
5- Cards speak.
6 - If people get upset with you for being fair, then that is on them. If they wouldn't do the same for you, then again, that's on them. As for what you gain, you adhere to the golden rule. If everyone treated others how we'd like to be treated, then it's +EV for the world.

With all of that being said, I completely understand our natural instinct to protect ourselves in certain situations. However, if we are getting right down to the point, then to me it is clearly correct to speak up and anything else is just an excuse. Some are better excuses than others, but they are all still excuses.

Note to self, Tecmo will snitch on you "because it's the right thing to do".