General Poker Discussion Poker Forums

i hate you guys, because OP is asking for help and what does he get from the masses? you should be much more careful with what you are proposing and believe in, because you might have so much influence on people.

I hope the people telling him to quit have influence on him and I think you're vastly underestimating the destructiveness poker can have on a life and your advice for him to continue is horrible. Sure it might be good for him to continue in something, but better pick up the guitar again and continue that rather than poker.

of course you are right, but i wanted to stress the point not to quit everything, but try to work out things for personal development. if this is his goal/focus poker is kind of the ideal thing, because it lets those issues appear.

i do not underestimate the destructiveness, i see it as a chance to grow upon. and i think if he understands that he is responsible for himself, he should just try to get over that and not just quit.

ppl telling him to quit simply imply that he is not able to take full responsibilty for himself, instead of just saying that he needs to take full responsibility and give advice that he is able to work with.

duffte is completely wrong with all due respect. What is happening here is addiction- you would not tell a drug addict to learn to conquer his drug and use it occasionally to show personal growth. We can argue about the definition of addiction but telling a person to conquer his gambling addiction by learning how to be good at poker is reckless.

addiction is not addiction
your body is addicted to drugs physically
the reason why you are "addicted" to something mentally can be and should be sorted out.
and they should be sorted out unless you do not want to know about yourself.

again im not proposing him to play poker, i am proposing to get in contact with his flaws that lead to him quitting everything, him tilting.

you cannot just say "hes addicted" and close the case

duffte: you realize that for many, gambling causes a chemical process in your brain that releases endorphins and adrenaline which can be physically addicting, right?

http://neuroanthropology.net/2009/05/23/gambling-and-compulsion-play-at-your-own-risk/ - Gambling and Compulsion: Neurobiology meets Casinos

Yeah Duffte, I'm going to have to agree with the others here. Coming from someone that has sat in a gamblers annonymous group before and listened/seen what gambling can do to people, I'm almost taken aback by your comments. This is a very very serious problem for a lot of people and sure, it might not be "physical" like a drug addiction and people who suffer from a gambling addiction might not run the risk of OD'ing and dying, but they run the risk of losing EVERYTHING they have which is just as bad.

Now, I do agree with you when you say it's not good advice to tell OP to just quit another thing that he has started up, but I also agree with Grindcore that OP should pick up something like the guitar or the piano again instead of trying to conquer poker. I'm sorry, all the signs are there, but only OP can make the conscious decision to get help.

[grunching...]

no. work out your issues and finally achieve. work out your fuckin issues or just stay being an idiot. your choice.

i agree that poker can teach someone a lot about oneself and life beyond poker. but there are lots of other hobbies which we can pursue the path of mastery without ruining ourselves financially.

"Stephen R. Covey's book, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People®, has been a top-seller for the simple reason that it ignores trends and pop psychology for proven principles"

seriously?

magic beans?

i agree that most self-help books/gurus aimed primarily towards business people say a lot without saying anything at all. Tony Robbins, Robert Kyosaki, Stephen R. Covey, they're all masters of motivating through stringing together confident sounding nonsense. and these guys love giving high priced seminars that don't offer much more than what anyone can find for free if they're only slightly motivated.

Robert Greene writes in the 48 Laws of Power:
"Law 27 - PLAY ON PEOPLE'S NEED TO BELIEVE TO CREATE A CULTLIKE FOLLOWING. People have an overwhelming desire to believe in something. Become the focal point of such desire by offering them a cause, a new faith to follow. Keep your words vague but full of promise; emphasize enthusiasm over rationality and clear thinking. Give your new disciples rituals to perform, ask them to make sacrifices on your behalf. In the absence of organized religion and grand causes, your new belief system will bring you untold power."

if you want self-help materials, prefer works by psychologists, scientists, philosophers, journalists, sports figures, or military leaders, and be extra critical when the author is engaged in selling high priced seminars (different from being invited to give lectures).

http://neuroanthropology.net/2009/05/23/gambling-and-compulsion-play-at-your-own-risk/ - Gambling and Compulsion: Neurobiology meets Casinos

from the article:

The Illusion of Control

Players literally “hold the cards” in games such as blackjack and poker, providing them the feeling that they have a certain amount of control over events that are, in fact, governed by the laws of mathematics.

i hope the author is referring to house games like Caribbean Stud poker and Pai Gow poker. but we can't control variance, that much is true.

also, it should be pointed out that a player can use basic strategy in blackjack to minimize the house edge to < 1%. so a blackjack player can control how much he's expected to lose in the long run without actually realizing it in the short run. similar to how a good poker player can control how much he's expected to win in the long run without realizing it in short run (obvious difference being one activity being -EV and the other being +EV).

First of all, many thanks to everybody who took the time to read and reply with open heart to The Donk.

I could write now a very big reply. I feel the need to write about myself, my family, my dog, to say that I'm quite a happy and normal person, to justify why and how I started poker, how I got opening and continuing this thread instead of having fun in poker and in [life minus poker]..., and maybe somewhere in the near future I will, even if not so many will be interested.

What I want to say now, is that I discovered with your help another (the 3rd) dimension of the poker players. Most of my poker friends are recreational (home live) players, and only a few are recreational online players. They ALL know only the 1st dimension of the poker players: poker rules, basic strategy, and that's it. I also started there, but as a curious and thirsty for knowledge electronics engineer, I went further to explore the poker world, and found the second dimension of a poker player. This is the reg. Organized, selective tight aggressive, he grinds his favorite poker game every day, he grows every day. He uses HEM to analyse himself and his opponents, knows to avoid other regs and catch the fishes that get caught at his tables, knows all about reading hands. He reads interesting poker books, watches DC videos, learn and uses new tools, reads and posts lots of interesting hands on top poker forums. He knows poker is a long term bussiness, both from the learning and winning perspective. I know about these regs. Hoped to become one myself.

Let's see where we are: 1st dimension is for recreational players, 2nd dimension is for good-better-best payers. But both are analytic dimensions, based only on the game and style on playing. This is what I thought to be IT.

But in the last 3-4 month, I found the 3rd dimension, which is so powerful, that it can destroy everything from the 2nd dimension. This is the psychologically-aware poker player. This is the reg + the following attributes: self awareness, self control, the master from the master's journey in long term fulfillment, master in neuropsychology, psychological deception, manipulation and probably many others. Most important one of all, the master in self control.

Here is where I failed bad. I hurt myself so bad, in a psychological way, that I can't believe it yet. Yes, some of my actions resemble the gambler disease, but I think it's because I entered a dimension in which I have no control and no knowledge yet. Here is the problem: I know what do to and how to do it, I love to do it, I do it, but fail because I don't know to control myself. A big guy said: emotions can make you or brake you. Before making or braking, you have to be aware that you can control these emotions, to serve you in the long term. I mean, on one side we have the emotion control of live poker players. You must not laugh, not show any gesture. And that's hard, but to control yourself online, for me, is a very long journey.

But here's the good part. I believe that controlling myself can improve my poker (we are on a poker forum), but also my life. I see it as a fortunate event. One can live happily in ignorance, and never find these concept. The fact that I did, makes me wanna improve.

DO YOU think this is possible?

If you want to gain self control, you can work at that in other activities than poker (like guitar). You have an entire thread of people advising you to quit and you still end your post with the same question. Listen to yourself. It's classic denial. Quitting poker should actually take a lot of self control for you so it'd be a great way to achieve the goal.

self awareness arises to self control, you are simply not there yet.. dude you are still young, nobody expects you to master this yet.. im just saying... stay in touch with it.. and quit poker for all sake, but stay in touch with yourself

"Here is where I failed bad. I hurt myself so bad, in a psychological way, that I can't believe it yet. Yes, some of my actions resemble the gambler disease, but I think it's because I entered a dimension in which I have no control and no knowledge yet."

everybody is trying to be your mother here, where's your father?

i dont wanna fight everybodys thoughts in here anymore.. all i can say is that i been there where you are, i lost everything and found myself in nearly the same spot.. i started writing about it, i got in touch with myself.. i still find myself in situations i cannot handle, but i am working them out. i wish i could tell you that you have to do this or that.. i guess you just have to experience everything and be focused on everything yourself, which is kind of the hardest job i ever had to do.. but it is totally worth it to be able to not just live with how you are at the moment, but find adjustments to how it needs to be to succeed in a specific field.

it is risky, destructive and everything people pointed out to you... either it kills you or you start growing..

so my voice is going to fade to grey now... stick to what others said, i kind of am the devil in this one

dont hate!

btw i find it interesting that everybody is one the same train here while im alone with my opinion.

I didn't actually said I will try to find self control in poker :-). I said it could improve not only my poker, but other things in life.

I also have a new one. Why did I quit all hobbies like guitar, piano, aquarium ..., others, ... and maybe poker? There must be an explanation.

Here is what I think now: nothing of the above satisfied me. And probably nothing will.

Here I stop. Thanks for everything!

hey, wish you the best

My opinion is maybe you are super unhappy in life so you take up all these hobbies because you think it will be the one to give you what you are laking whatever it may be general happiness wealth fame you name it.....

Some spectacularly bad thinking on the part of duffte in this thread, but fortunately others have called his arguments on the carpet effectively.

On the broader topic this thread touches on, we frequently see people who struggle with discipline and tilt issues of all kinds in the forums. In many of these cases, people are angry, frustrated, depressed, or some combination of the above. What I have always failed to understand is why people put themselves through these sorts of things chasing down some level of mastery over a game that means so very little in context of actual living.

Of course, for professionals and semi-professionals, my point is moot, because they often need to work through these issues to further their chosen career or continue to put food on their tables. But, for those who don't rely on poker for income, why do folks torture themselves again and again? I'm not talking about those who are simply venting about a bad session/week/downswing. I am more focused on those who have stories like the OP. We've all probably read a good handful of these sorts of threads.

Bottom line -- I just don't know why people put themselves through unpleasantness over something that's really very inconsequential.

I think the best thing to take for this is that poker has made you aware of some things that you'd like to improve on. I'd suggest not giving up on this pursuit of self improvement but just to direct your focus and energy to some other hobby.

If you keep getting the same patterns reappearing and you find yourself unhappy about it maybe seeing a good psychologist might help you out.

Best of luck in your future endeavors

Bottom line -- I just don't know why people put themselves through unpleasantness over something that's really very inconsequential.

I don't think the following explaination is fact, but I have read it more than once; it is said that compulsive gamblers actually subconsciously want to lose to punish themselves.

I think a lot of people dream of leaving their shitty job and sitting around in their underpants with a bong collecting checks from online poker

I think a lot of people dream of leaving their shitty job and sitting around in their underpants with a bong collecting checks from online poker

Thats my reality though.. awkward but

wire transfers <3

Some spectacularly bad thinking on the part of duffte in this thread, but fortunately others have called his arguments on the carpet effectively.

Bottom line -- I just don't know why people put themselves through unpleasantness over something that's really very inconsequential.

i think it is very very very very arrogant to not want to work out issues like that. its uncomplicated to be ignorant isnt it? some people are just not as stubborn, thinking that their way to appraoch things is naturally (godlike), some people will sort out the occuring problems and not ignore them. and you call that spectacularly bad thinking. congratulations.

the only reason i reply here is to defend my own approach to this problem (just like everybody else did/does). and my thoughts are not spectacuarly bad, they are more in an examplary manner than others. i felt like i had to raise my voice. it was me taking all the heat in here, still not one argument was brought up against my way of approaching all those issues. only things named were close to insults..

i dont accept people saying you should give up on things, just because you have issues dealing with them. everybody in here thinks they drive people to their goods and everybody has a different approach to that. why am i being hated for mine? everybody said, if this was sports, guitar or something.. great fight it. and i was not saying anything different. i never said he should play poker, i said _working out things_ has to be the focus in this discussion and NOT quitting.

i wanted to lead the discussion in the direction where we could talk about how to work out those issues, you? no dont do it.. its stressfull and all that. have a beer, thats more uncomplicated.
we could have talked about great things, but. but you.

thank you for the discussion. i was able to define myself in here, did you? this discussion was not about finding the solution, but a, but yours. and i will continue working, what will you do.

I'm going to assume you aren't a native English speaker, because your grammar and syntax makes it pretty hard to understand you. I'll give it a try.

I don't think anyone has told him that giving up as a standard option to any hardship or obstacle is the thing to do. But, if anyone imagines that EVERY activity is a net-neutral with respect to quitting or persevering, they're fooling themselves. Gambling, for people who have predilections for compulsive behavior, is NOT a net-neutral activity. It is not like playing guitar or sports. It is an activity that can, and does, ruin the lives of many. And, since OP is not a professional, it's an activity that is potentially injurious to him and provides no apparent positive benefit to him by his own account. Why on earth should anyone advise him to not "be a quitter" when evaluating his situation?

I agree with you that persevering and working through problems is important. But, people who struggle with compulsive gambling behaviors, or just those who are trying to master poker but only end up being driven crazy or made miserable, should not be using poker to work out their problems. There are many, many other worthwhile areas of life where they can work on their discipline in a positive, constructive way.

Bottom line -- your advice is the same as someone telling a problem drinker that they don't need to quit drinking, but rather just find a way to work through their issues and learn to drink in moderation. That, as any therapist or addiction specialist will tell you, is spectacularly stupid thinking.

@ duffte- I get the feeling that you don't believe in the concept of addiction outside of the physical part relating to hard drugs.

Addiction is a complex process going way beyond physical withdrawal- dealing with this process in no way involves learning moderation.

It certainly is not weak or ignorant to say "I cannot drink, do drugs, or gamble at all because I can't control it".

who said OP was a gambling addict?

Here is where I failed bad. I hurt myself so bad, in a psychological way, that I can't believe it yet. Yes, some of my actions resemble the gambler disease, but I think it's because I entered a dimension in which I have no control and no knowledge yet.

this is the cause of tilt. so everybody tilting is a gambling addict in your understanding.
mental game of poker, tommy angelos stuff on here.. is treatment for gambling addicts?

i would not treat a drug addict nor a gambling addict the way you are implying i would.
i just dont see OP as a gambling addict. i think what he is suffering from is tilt. and tilt per definition is what?


who said OP was a gambling addict?

Maybe he isn't (yet) but he seems high risk for it.