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People like this are cool with me; I don't know what you experienced or didn't experience. If it all makes sense for you, then in some ways, I'm jealous.

There's definitely more to life than meets the eye, but I cannot determine what that means. It could mean there is a God, there is no God, that we are somehow immortal, or that everything supernatural in nature is a bunch of BS - I don't know. Wish I did.

And we will never know. That's why threads like this will continue to go round and round.

Claiming that he was not there is just as stupid as claiming that he was.

Oliver FTW!

Evolution and theism are not mutually exclusive. There is a thing called 'theistic evolution.'

But Christianity with all its severe claims, appears to be.

For instance most leave no room for metaphor, so the creation story in Genesis has to be literally true or the rest of the claims of the Bible are false, since God is infallible and God 'breathed' the Bible.

Which is great for atheists, cause all you really need to do is prove the bible has one contradiction or that evolution is true and the whole thing falls apart. But proving anything counteractive to someones faith is almost impossible, because they base their entire identity around their belief. This is the reason why if you argue long enough they start to bring out the personal insults and call you names or get very angry. The force of reason is too much for their shaken identity to handle and they get in a huff or have to leave.

John Loftus said you have to show 'that someone's faith is impossible before they can see it as improbable.' That's how it happened for me. I mean, in all honesty, I wished there was a god. And when my faith evaporated when I saw how absolutely impossible it really was, it was like I lost a friend, and I grieved the death of my friend for quite a while.

His statement is really telling of how crucially important and powerful personal beliefs are to a human being, but we've seen countless times how very dangerous they can be if left unquestioned.

you don't understand how wikipedia works do you? that article has 66 sources cited. that's 65 more than the bible.

Too good.

I'm personally just trying to understand why people become religious.

Honestly Oliver, this is a question I have asked myself many times and I really think it has to do with fear of death more than anything else.

People just don't want to die. And coming up with myths and stories to assure themselves they will 'live forever' and that 'god will give us justice' is religion in a nutshell. This becomes a great way to deal with it, emotionally. The more elaborate, the more personal...the more appeal.

Evolution and theism are not mutually exclusive.

Clearly they are not since theism is a result of evolution (but hopefully not the last).

And this goes the same way. Atheists are not able to look at it from our point of view either. Because you want to argue evolution, pick apart The Bible or say it's physically/scientifically impossible for a bush to catch on fire and speak to Moses and for him to part the water of the Red Sea to free his people. These are miracles that cannot be explained. The same holds true for a friend of the family who was diagnosed with pancriotic cancer, was given less than 6 months to live, battled and battled with chemo for months, and was told by doctors there was nothing else that could be done. He stopped chemo and was left for dead. The family brought in their pastor and turned to prayer. He's been cancer free now for 6+ years. There are just some things that cannot be explained, even though people want to try and convince me that I'm wrong/foolish until their blue in the face.

I'm the first to admit, you find a contradicion in The Bible, good for you. Any Christian who denies that The Bible has not been the most edited/translated book in history is a fool...yes, fool. King James, The Message, etc. They're all translated by someone who has different viewpoints of what things mean. You can read all you want, but until you see first hand of what God is capable of, none of this matters.

I'm curious Gluiperig, taking your word for it that your God moments were genuine, what led you to translate them into your current following of protestant Christianity? If you would prefer answering this in PM, that's cool too.

The Golden rule is not in the Bible btw. What no one has answered at all is why on Earth anyone would give a crap about anyone else in this no God luck box life accident that is so cherrished by so many people. It came to be over time though evolution. There is no proof at all of evolution and yet many people believe that on blind faith and then say a Christian is a blind moron for believing things that have no proof and then turn around and ignore the signs that he is indeed there. I'm getting really bored with this conversation.

I didn't say the "golden rule" was in the bible - quite honestly I have no idea and don't really care - it is something I try to live by (and the term golden rule was one that came up when I googled the ethical thought/phrase used - perhaps I should have avoided any terminology).

I am not sure why you are taking a swipe at my comments (EDIT: re-reading I am not sure now if you are or not). I did not say anything negative about your religious beliefs and I have no issue with whatever beliefs you have. Am I somehow a worse person than you because I don't worship your God or any God? I don't think so but maybe you do - interesting question?

I also have no idea why treating others as you would wish to be treated yourself is necessarily tied to religion/evolution or any such thing. Perhaps it could be argued that we have evolved to think that way because not doing so has significant consequences in some circumstances, perhaps it could be argued that it is a fundamental tenet of many religions (whether explicit or not) but I don't actually care HOW I came to believe this is an extremely powerful and good basis for a personal moral code - it is not relevant to me.

And this goes the same way. Atheists are not able to look at it from our point of view either.

I was a devout born-again Christian for 25 years, an agnostic for 2 and have only been an atheist for 1 year. Trust me, I can see things from your point of view.

Because you want to argue evolution, pick apart The Bible or say it's physically/scientifically impossible for a bush to catch on fire and speak to Moses and for him to part the water of the Red Sea to free his people. These are miracles that did not happen.

FYP. Hey listen, you show me one or two good pieces of evidence that 'miracles' (whats a miracle, exactly?) happen and I will believe you.

The same holds true for a friend of the family who was diagnosed with pancriotic cancer, was given less than 6 months to live, battled and battled with chemo for months, and was told by doctors there was nothing else that could be done. He stopped chemo and was left for dead. The family brought in their pastor and turned to prayer. He's been cancer free now for 6+ years. There are just some things that cannot be explained, even though people want to try and convince me that I'm wrong/foolish until their blue in the face.

What about the thousands and millions of people who prayed and whose cancer never went into remission, and died anyway? What about them? What about the thousands of atheists who never said a single prayer and had their cancer go into remission? This is a piss-poor argument.

I'm the first to admit, you find a contradicion in The Bible, good for you. Any Christian who denies that The Bible has not been the most edited/translated book in history is a fool...yes, fool. King James, The Message, etc. They're all translated by someone who has different viewpoints of what things mean. You can read all you want, but until you see first hand of what God is capable of, none of this matters.

I want you to open your mind and realize that you believe because you want to believe, and for no other reason. That's all fine and well, you can believe what you want...but at least understand why you believe.

Oh, and all the logical fallacies and personal experiences in the world don't-mean-a-flit, because schizophrenic people see demons and hear voices and have transcendent beautiful god-touching moments, but they are fucking crazy.

[/quote]Am I somehow a worse person than you because I don't worship your God or any God? I don't think so but maybe you do - interesting question?[/quote]

This is why we get a bad name, because some Christians will say yes, you are a worse person, but those people that say that you're worse person are the worst of them all IMO.

I will also add this. If I am wrong then what did I lose? If you are wrong (athiest) what will you lose? Not looking for a reply in here I would just ask you to think about this for a while some day waiting for a plane or at a traffic light. I ask this because I care for all people and do not need the other side to come over to mine to feel better about it, which I don't think is so true for the athiest camp.

I find this a really interesting comment.

As I said earlier - "I don't believe if there is a God or Gods that because I don't pray, go to any church etc that I would be judged by those non-action. Rather I think I would be judged by my actions."

Clearly you think differently?

What I don't get is why God would want people spending huge amounts of time praying etc? No offense - I just think that the way you live your life is more important surely? Obviously worship and living a "good" life are not mutually exclusive in any way and I am not suggesting anything of the sort but just wondering what the value in worship is? Why would God want people to worship him/her/whatever?

I was a devout born-again Christian for 25 years, an agnostic for 2 and have only been an atheist for 1 year. Trust me, I can see things from your point of view.



FYP. Hey listen, you show me one or two good pieces of evidence that 'miracles' (whats a miracle, exactly?) happen and I will believe you.



What about the thousands and millions of people who prayed and whose cancer never went into remission, and died anyway? What about them? What about the thousands of atheists who never said a single prayer and had their cancer go into remission? This is a piss-poor argument.



I want you to open your mind and realize that you believe because you want to believe, and for no other reason. That's all fine and well, you can believe what you want...but at least understand why you believe.

Oh, and all the logical fallacies and personal experiences in the world don't-mean-a-flit, because schizophrenic people see demons and hear voices and have transcendent beautiful god-touching moments, but they are fucking crazy.

I have never said anything other than I believe because I WANT to believe. When talking about my friend with cancer, please don't try and criticize me for that example, or turn it around...please. I used a sensitive/private example to make a simple point. Some things cannot be explained with science or logic. If I take it as a moment where God acted, then that's my choice, and trust me I have plenty more examples that I guess aren't worth sharing here. I understand not all prayers are answered and those who don't believe in God have the same things happen to them as well. But as a Christian my belief is that God is working those miracles for those who aren't asking Him, and only He knows what's going to happen. If my dad was to get in a car accident today, deemed brain dead and put on life support of course I'm going to pray my ass off that God will save him. If he dies and my prayers go unanswered, does that mean there's not a God? No, it just means He knows what's best and I have put my trust in Him that He is right.

Also, I apologize for categorizing you and "all Atheists." I appreciate that you are able to see things from my point of view...even though not all can. I guess we're all guilty of generalizing.

to: mastertex

you've got some serious cognitive biases in your thinking. you're not hurting anybody but yourself by continuing to debate when you can't even see the holes in your own thinking.

Pokersense

I have never said anything other than I believe because I WANT to believe. When talking about my friend with cancer, please don't try and criticize me for that example, or turn it around...please.

Well, ok, but your last two posts are chock full of apparent good reasons to believe, and none of them are...not logically.

Your example was a personal one and I'm sure a powerful one; I didn't intend to offend you or turn it around. My only intent was to show it was not a good one, logically. It's not. That's no offense towards you or anyone else, and I am glad your friend pulled through.

Imagine a day when cancer is a thing of the past, because of science.

Some things cannot be explained with science or logic.

This is a wide claim. There might be things at present that we don't understand, but that doesn't mean they are unexplainable. That's a huge and unmerited leap.

The more we learn about it, the more we discover the universe is essentially mathematics.

If I take it as a moment where God acted, then that's my choice, and trust me I have plenty more examples that I guess aren't worth sharing here. I understand not all prayers are answered and those who don't believe in God have the same things happen to them as well. But as a Christian my belief is that God is working those miracles for those who aren't asking Him, and only He knows what's going to happen. If my dad was to get in a car accident today, deemed brain dead and put on life support of course I'm going to pray my ass off that God will save him. If he dies and my prayers go unanswered, does that mean there's not a God? No, it just means He knows what's best and I have put my trust in Him that He is right.

Yes and you are entitled to that as a free person. All I'm doing is pointing out that such belief is irrational, with which you seem to agree.

Also, I apologize for categorizing you and "all Atheists." I appreciate that you are able to see things from my point of view...even though not all can. I guess we're all guilty of generalizing.

I just wish most people would force themselves to do the same.