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Do you mean that they are almost 100% sure there is something like a soul? Or do you mean that they do not rule out the possibility?

I don't think people think about it in that way. It just feels like we have souls. The same way it feels like the Sun is going around the Earth and not the other way around. Even though both ways would look/feel the same.

Even the way we talk about what happens to us when we die. We don't mean what happens to our bodies or brains. We mean what happens to our souls.

Almost everyone on earth whether they believe in God or not believe on some level that they have a soul/spirit. Almost everyone believes that we are not purely physical objects but that there is something more to us - a duality. We have our physical bodies but we also have something else that makes us uniquely different from other living things. 99.9% (making this number up) of people are dualists.

I guess I'm in the 0.1%

As for what happens after death: I imagine it will feel just like before I was born.

As for what happens after death: I imagine it will feel just like before I was born.

I don't remember what it was like before I was born but I remember my birth quite vividly...

"It was dark, warm, wet. A sudden burst of light, an intense pressure like I'd never felt before, father dressed in white, pulls me forward, mother bites the cord--"

Almost everyone on earth whether they believe in God or not believe on some level that they have a soul/spirit.

Not the rational ones. So ya, 99.9% is probably pretty close.

Almost everyone believes that we are not purely physical objects but that there is something more to us - a duality. We have our physical bodies but we also have something else that makes us uniquely different from other living things. 99.9% (making this number up) of people are dualists.

I dunno why you would make up a ridiculous number and then admit it's ridiculous. I doubt it's even a large majority anymore. Cartesian dualism is pretty much debunked and has become philosophical mumbo-jumbo for a good while now. Psychologists, neuroscientists, etc. know beyond all doubt that behavior is 100% endogenous, meaning it comes from within. There are no outside forces good or evil compelling people to act. It is purely a collage of upbringing, chemistry, and neurophysiology.

Besides, whether or not a great deal of people believe something to be true has absolutely no bearing on whether it's true or false.

Almost no one would argue that the brain is not the source of mental life and responsible for memory, reasoning etc. but the love you feel for your family can't really be the doing of a 4 pound meatloaf pulsing with blood can it?

What else then? The vast majority of our emotions come from our limbic system, what other evidence do we need than we can SEE IT HAPPENING IN THE BRAIN when we scan it (there is much, much more). Animals have emotions too, and what you call 'love.'

This even is seen within the way we talk about things. We say things like "my bankroll" or "my car". But we also say "my hand" as if my hand is separate from me. We even take it a step further to say "my brain" as if my brain is just another possession and not really what makes me and all my experiences possible.

How does our ability to speak and think in the first person or separate individual parts of ourselves from the whole lead you to conclude that we have a soul or that there is something more to consciousness? It's just an uncommon ability (in the animal kingdom), but still a quite logical one.

My hand is not me, my brain is not me, my arm is not me, but put it all together, and that's me. Nothing else. No evidence for a soul, or spirit. Just my body, brain, and mind...each one boundariless and intimately interdependent.

In fiction we just accept that someone could fall asleep as themselves but wake up as their mother. Even though we know its just a movie we accept it as something that could potentially happen.

Again, how does our ability to ascertain potential outcomes lead you to conclude we have a soul!? Animals have instincts ingrained in them to help ensure their survival...maybe our ability to think ahead is one of our survival mechanisms. Maybe 'love' is another...

i should have known better than to post in this thread lol

Not the rational ones. So ya, 99.9% is probably pretty close.

I dunno why you would make up a ridiculous number and then admit it's ridiculous. I doubt it's even a large majority anymore. Cartesian dualism is pretty much debunked and has become philosophical mumbo-jumbo for a good while now. Psychologists, neuroscientists, etc. know beyond all doubt that behavior is 100% endogenous, meaning it comes from within. There are no outside forces good or evil compelling people to act. It is purely a collage of upbringing, chemistry, and neurophysiology.

Besides, whether or not a great deal of people believe something to be true has absolutely no bearing on whether it's true or false.

I agree. Just because lots of people believe something doesn't make it true. I didn't say it was true.

What else then? The vast majority of our emotions come from our limbic system, what other evidence do we need than we can SEE IT HAPPENING IN THE BRAIN when we scan it (there is much, much more). Animals have emotions too, and what you call 'love.'

I agree.

How does our ability to speak and think in the first person or separate individual parts of ourselves from the whole lead you to conclude that we have a soul or that there is something more to consciousness? It's just an uncommon ability (in the animal kingdom), but still a quite logical one.

My hand is not me, my brain is not me, my arm is not me, but put it all together, and that's me. Nothing else. No evidence for a soul, or spirit. Just my body, brain, and mind...each one boundariless and intimately interdependent.

| agree. I never concluded anything. I never said anyone has a soul.

Again, how does our ability to ascertain potential outcomes lead you to conclude we have a soul!? Animals have instincts ingrained in them to help ensure their survival...maybe our ability to think ahead is one of our survival mechanisms. Maybe 'love' is another...

I agree with everything you said. I wasn't making an argument for the existence of the soul. I think maybe you misinterpreted what I wrote. I didn't say that in fiction our souls can move from one body to another makes any sense, I just said we accept it. I am not saying we should believe in souls. I am saying the majority of people believe it in some way without even thinking about it.

In my first post I was somewhat showing the point of view of the average person. It kind of comes off as though I am trying to persuade you into believing in souls/spirits.

i should have known better than to post in this thread lol

It's fun to read everyone's ideas on all this stuff. As long as no one gets offended I think this is a good time.

Ok cool. Your post looked very much like you were stating an argument for a soul and I guess I read too much into it.

Ok cool. Your post looked very much like you were stating an argument for a soul and I guess I read too much into it.

It's understandable. Lets keep the discussion up I am getting a bang out of this thread.

It's fun to read everyone's ideas on all this stuff. As long as no one gets offended I think this is a good time.

Everyone's ideas seem to be people like me who takes my faith/religion seriously are just idiots. Oh well, I'm used to it.

Everyone's ideas seem to be people like me who takes my faith/religion seriously are just idiots. Oh well, I'm used to it.

Having read through this I don't get that impression at all. Speaking for myself, I just like reading everyone's ideas and I am not looking for any one side to come out on top or for anyone to be labeled right or wrong. In general enjoy hearing both sides of every story for everything, not just religion.

Everyone's ideas seem to be people like me who takes my faith/religion seriously are just idiots. Oh well, I'm used to it.

Just because I don't understand your approach to life does not make you an idiot. It just means that I don't understand.

But if you insist that you are right, use The Bible in a debate or preach to children (including your own) or people who for some reason need help - then I would like to buy an argument That would be abuse of power - the is biggest sin of them all. You would be violating their rights.

i'll just leave this here.




"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
-Stephen Roberts


"And the day will come, when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His Father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva, in the brain of Jupiter."
-Thomas Jefferson


"Out of all of the sects in the world, we notice an uncanny coincidence: the overwhelming majority just happen to choose the one that their parents belong to. Not the sect that has the best evidence in its favour, the best miracles, the best moral code, the best cathedral, the best stained glass, the best music: when it comes to choosing from the smorgasbord of available religions, their potential virtues seem to count for nothing, compared to the matter of heredity. This is an unmistakable fact; nobody could seriously deny it. Yet people with full knowledge of the arbitrary nature of this heredity, somehow manage to go on believing in their religion, often with such fanaticism that they are prepared to murder people who follow a different one."
-Richard Dawkins


"If a man, holding a belief which he was taught in childhood or persuaded of afterwards, keeps down and pushes away any doubts which arise about it in his mind, purposely avoids the reading of books and the company of men that call into question or discuss it, and regards as impious those questions which cannot easily be asked without disturbing it--the life of that man is one long sin against mankind."
- W. K. Clifford


"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear. Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences.... If it end in a belief that there is no god, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise and in the love of others it will procure for you."
-Thomas Jefferson


"To be sure, the doctrine of a personal God interfering with natural events could never be refuted, in the real sense, by science, for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot. But I am convinced that such behavior on the part of representatives of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal. For a doctrine which is to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark, will of necessity lose its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress."
- Albert Einstein


"There is something feeble and a little contemptible about a man who cannot face the perils of life without the help of comfortable myths. Almost inevitably some part of him is aware that they are myths and that he believes them only because they are comforting. But he dare not face this thought! Moreover, since he is aware, however dimly, that his opinions are not real, he becomes furious when they are disputed."
-Bertrand Russell


"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."
- Benjamin Franklin


"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my own part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel."
-Thomas Paine


"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
- Isaac Asimov


"1 John 4:8 - "God is love." 1 Corinthians 13:4 - "Love is not jealous." Exodus 20:5 - "I, the Lord thy God am a jealous God." Taken together, either God cannot logically exist or the Bible is incorrect." - stoney@stoneynet.net (alt.atheism newsgroup)


"All thinking men are atheists."
- Ernest Hemingway

But if you insist that you are right, use The Bible in a debate or preach to children (including your own) or people who for some reason need help - then I would like to buy an argument That would be abuse of power - the is biggest sin of them all. You would be violating their rights.

I don't know how much I like this. I mean if I buy some food for a guy on the street and say "God bless" when I give it to him, that doesn't make me a bad person, but at the same time, I'm not going to go up to some random person and start preaching The Bible. I'm not a bad person because I teach/lead a children's ministry at my church either or if I chose to teach my own kids about The Bible. My parents did the same thing when I was growing up, but at the same time, they left it up to us kids to decide for ourselves. My sister does not attend church, I attend a different denomination and my brother still goes to Mass every Sunday. Again, it's all about personal belief. Being a Christian is really supposed to be about forgiveness and willingness to help those in need. Also, the biggest sin a Christian can commit is not believing.

But anyway, I really am done posting on this thread. I'll just keep reading everyone else's thoughts. I think there's only like 2-3 of us that actually believe in religion anyway so I'll let them post. Cheers!