General Poker Discussion Poker Forums

ad hominem, just saying...

"What things a man must learn in order to be able to apply the art of disputation, has been accurately shown by our philosophers; but with respect to the proper use of the things, we are entirely without practice. Only give to any of us, whom you please, an illiterate man to discuss with,, and he cannot discover how to deal with the man. But when he has moved the man a little, if he answers beside the purpose, he does not know how to treat him, but he then either abuses or ridicules him, and says, "He is an illiterate man; it is not possible to do anything with him." Now a guide, when he has found a man out of the road leads him into the right way: he does not ridicule or abuse him and then leave him. Do you also show this illiterate man the truth, and you will see that he follows. But so long as you do not show him the truth, do not ridicule him, but rather feel your own incapacity."
The Discourses By Epictetus, Book 2 Chapter 12

It's not an ad hominem at all. I'm not ridiculing or criticizing, or trying to bring them down personally in order to make my point more convincing. I'm just pointing out a fact.

It's impossible to give someone complicated directions in a language that's foreign to them. No matter how simply put, or how many times you reiterate it, they can't understand and can't be expected to understand. That's not a personal blow, it's just common sense.

Epictetus assumes the fact it is even possible for the illiterate man to understand or that he desires the truth in the first place. I discount that. The people in this thread either can't understand or don't want to understand so it becomes pointless to argue with them. The conversation is over before it even begins.

@mastertex

There are answers to every single one of your questions and they are readily available and easy to understand.

It is my contention that you do not wish to understand. You raise questions as if questions could somehow weaken a position, but then you choose not to go out of your way to find answers to them. You don't really want answers to your questions, because you know deep down that those answers would make your faith untenable. You're happy just knowing that there are unanswered questions, and that those somehow make your faith justified. God-did-it.

You are free to do as you wish, but what would be truly amazing to me is for you to go yet another step and claim that willfully taking such an unmovable position is both reasonable and justified, when just about everyone in this thread can see it for what it really is.

Can't you see that God was once used as the explanation for everything we did not understand? God used to be responsible for lightning and hurricanes and earthquakes...and now we know that isn't true. You sincerely believe we won't find the explanations for what you claim must be god at sometime in the future? I'll bet you any amount that we do. I'm so sure I'm willing to bet my life on it.

Hell, if I had one, I'd bet my soul on it.

But I'm sure this post will end up being just another exercise in frustration so, kindly, I bid you adieu and peace be with you as well.

First Law of Thermodynamics. This law (note: not a theory but a scientific law) teaches us that matter and energy can neither be created nor destroyed.

Well the universe is in essence nothing... It has zero net energy and matter. There was never any energy created, because the universe has no energy. Or rather, there was never any "free" energy. It came at a cost, leaving the universe with a net total of zero energy.

Funny how this thread is called the religion thread, and it's full with a bunch of atheists. Something itchy guys? .

Can't you see that God was once used as the explanation for everything we did not understand? God used to be responsible for lightning and hurricanes and earthquakes...and now we know that isn't true.

We know more about the processes. Great. We know more about the mechanics of this universe. Yay.
Don't get me wrong, it's a big achievement. Science is very powerful. It's brought good, it's brought bad. It's made life easier, it's made life tougher.
But it cannot account for the magic I witness in life. The manifestation of my consciousness, the joy of getting together, the love you may feel, incredible encounters one may have etc..

You could also ask the question: does chance exist? Atheists will say yes. The others will say no.

We know more about the processes. Great. We know more about the mechanics of this universe. Yay.
Don't get me wrong, it's a big achievement. Science is very powerful. It's brought good, it's brought bad. It's made life easier, it's made life tougher.
But it cannot account for the magic I witness in life. The manifestation of my consciousness, the joy of getting together, the love you may feel, incredible encounters one may have etc..

You could also ask the question: does chance exist? Atheists will say yes. The others will say no.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-agl0pOQfs

Nice song

What would be the point then. If God made you believe or showed himself so even the most cynical doubter..... what good would it do?

So why would He create man in his very own paradise and speak to them directly, telling them not to eat the apple? And why would He send his very own son to earth to perform actual miracles to proof the religions people had at that time are false and they should start believing in God? If anything, right now is the time for him to show himself (or send another son that can perform miracles or whatever) as documentation and communication have improved so much and thus the effect would be much better than 2000 years ago.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2e8_1304652184

We know more about the processes. Great. We know more about the mechanics of this universe. Yay.
Don't get me wrong, it's a big achievement. Science is very powerful. It's brought good, it's brought bad. It's made life easier, it's made life tougher.
But it cannot account for the magic I witness in life. The manifestation of my consciousness, the joy of getting together, the love you may feel, incredible encounters one may have etc..

You could also ask the question: does chance exist? Atheists will say yes. The others will say no.

Why do you need an explanation? Why not just accept that there are some things we cannot explain. Some questions that might not even be meaningful to ask.

Funny how this thread is called the religion thread, and it's full with a bunch of atheists. Something itchy guys? .

+1

Funny how this thread is called the religion thread, and it's full with a bunch of atheists. Something itchy guys? .

I'm sure if there was an atheist thread there would be a bunch of religions people in it as well. It's just the nature of the topic. It will always bring debate no matter what the intention. Any time belief is involved there's really not much point in debating though. You can't really debate belief. As I said in the thread earlier it's my opinion that, "You can't reason someone out of something they didn't reason themselves into", so I generally don't try.

Again the above statement isn't exclusive to religious beliefs, but beliefs in general.

You could also ask the question: does chance exist? Atheists will say yes. The others will say no.

You all are on a poker forum and don't 'believe' in chance lol. This thread is reaching all new heights for redundancy. We should all ask Phil Ivey what god he believes in, as clearly it's the right one.

Why do you think people come to believe that poker sites are rigged? The exact same mechanism that makes them believe in god.

Our brain doesn't think in the random. It is pattern seeking. When something that we think is 'ridiculously unlikely' happens there just has to be someone behind the curtains, pulling the strings..

No...there doesn't!


We should do a meaningless scientific experiment and test all the people who truly believe that poker is rigged and then find out how many of them believe in a deity. I'll bet the correlation is retardedly high.

Lets all do mushrooms and together ask God some questions.

First DC mushroomament.

Lets all do mushrooms and together ask God some questions.

First DC mushroomament.

THERE'S THE MITCH WE KNOW AND LOVE!

This should be required viewing for every debate:

http://www.ted.com/talks/kathryn_schulz_on_being_wrong.html

"If you really want to rediscover wonder, you need to step outside of that tiny, terrified space of rightness and look around at each other and look out at the vastness and complexity and mystery of the universe and be able to say, 'Wow, I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong.'"

We know more about the processes. Great. We know more about the mechanics of this universe. Yay.
Don't get me wrong, it's a big achievement. Science is very powerful. It's brought good, it's brought bad. It's made life easier, it's made life tougher.
But it cannot account for the magic I witness in life. The manifestation of my consciousness, the joy of getting together, the love you may feel, incredible encounters one may have etc..

There is some very serious work going on in neuroscience right now that can and will explain the feelings you have been having. It may be another generation until things really come into focus, but the work is already going on.

We already have a whole area, neuropsychopharmacology, that studies how drugs affect human behaviour.

I admit I don't particularly like the idea that scientists are exploring, and will be able to explain our feelings like love and joy in terms of neuro-chemistry in the brain, we've always approached these things as though they're something more than pure biology. Something extra... like inside all the meat that makes up our body, there's a little ball of white light... and that white light is our love and joy and our unique genius and our outlook on the world and our sense of humour and our creativity and such...

But we may all have to face a future knowing that inside the meat is just more meat.

That's extremely disconcerting because then what the fuck are we? Like as a human is my brain just a super-awesome computer and my personality, my humour, my love and so on... that's all constructs of the software running in my brain?

That may be a bitter pill to swallow...for all of us.

But if their research takes us there... it is where we must go.

anyone here tried psilocybin?
Scientific experiments in america showed that a significant number of participants had a religious experience.

maybe if you really wanna know what this means (a spiritual experience blah blah blah) you should try this?

I'm not some hippy promoting drugs, far from it, but so far this is the only scientifically acknowledged observation of a religious experience.

How do the atheists feel about this?

anyone here tried psilocybin?
Scientific experiments in america showed that a significant number of participants had a religious experience.

That's what I'm talking about!

anyone here tried psilocybin?
Scientific experiments in america showed that a significant number of participants had a religious experience.

maybe if you really wanna know what this means (a spiritual experience blah blah blah) you should try this?

I'm not some hippy promoting drugs, far from it, but so far this is the only scientifically acknowledged observation of a religious experience.

How do the atheists feel about this?

i just giggled alot

Ahhh magic mushrooms...if I had a religious experience when I took those it was one close to hell.

Ahhh magic mushrooms...if I had a religious experience when I took those it was one close to hell.

obviously took them when you where too young! The horrors of existence bite so hard in youth!

i just giggled alot

you giggle because your body is experiencing something new. Its a natural reaction.
"Sting" was quoted in the British press as taking them in his 40's and having a totally different experience.
i.e MORE spiritual/religious etc etc

my point is..as a rational human being you can experience what religiuos folk feel by ingesting drugs.
You can then empathise with them.
This is what is lacking in the whole debate - empathy!

you giggle because your body is experiencing something new. Its a natural reaction.
"Sting" was quoted in the British press as taking them in his 40's and having a totally different experience.
i.e MORE spiritual/religious etc etc

my point is..as a rational human being you can experience what religiuos folk feel by ingesting drugs.
You can then empathise with them.
This is what is lacking in the whole debate - empathy!

Empathizing with the religious point of view isn't going to make it any more reasonable.

And taking acid or magic mushrooms is more like empathizing with a schizophrenic person or psychotic than anything else. They might be experiencing something other than normal but it doesn't mean it's true. There aren't really 'voices' or 'hallucinations' or else they wouldn't be considered crazy and in need of professional help/medication.

. They might be experiencing something other than normal but it doesn't mean it's true. .

oops sorry. Tell me what is true? I was drunk last night and what i percieved was "true". In the morning, sober,your saying i still accepted this as true. How patronising!
Ever slept with someone drunk and in the morning thought " oh noooooo".
Whats the difference??

My point is that until you have had a spiritual experience how can you empathise with believers in god etc???