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@"GLUIPERIG"

You can read all you want, but until you see first hand of what God is capable of, none of this matters.

religiosity, as it cannot be verified empirically, will always fall back to the last resort of debate, an appeal to emotion.

a theory which cannot be disproven will always be senseless. if you choose to base your life on senseless propositions, that's your choice. but don't tell me it has more merit than a life led with intellectual honesty.

and using personal experience to defend a rationally indefensible position is bad. eyewitness evidence is the weakest form of evidence in a court of law as it's notoriously unreliable. we see and hear things all the time because we simply want to. if someone wants a holy experience, i'll give them a hit of acid and take them to heaven or hell. it's just chemicals in our brains.

Isn't that the difference between Atheists and religious believers? If I ask you, you're going to say that my believing that my friend was saved by God is an irrational thought, because you don't believe in a God. If I tell the story to my Pastor or someone at church what are they going to think?

Again, for the millionth time, if you want to call me irrational or whatever else, that's fine. It really doesn't matter to me and I don't let it get to me. I believe that Jesus Christ died for my sins and that there is a God. That doesn't make me a bad person or anything else, just like it doesn't make you a bad person that you share a different viewpoint.

Nothing like leaving it up to wikipedia to solve all debates...especially religious ones. If there's one source that all non-believers should view as less reliable than The Bible, it should be Wikipedia. Just saying.

I think you are correct. Wiki just kind of puts a date on it, as if it was the final answer (saying it is widely agreed truth). Really surprised me.
But when I tried to research it further, it seems pretty clear that all three (3) Abrahamic Religions put different dates to the beginning of creation -- which I am guessing, points to the different sources they are using. (????)

Yeah, I think Wiki failed on this detail. Not that clear cut.....and they should have noted it as such IMO.
But now I am curious (history), and going to go through those references. lol

@"GLUIPERIG"
religiosity, as it cannot be verified empirically, will always fall back to the last resort of debate, an appeal to emotion.

a theory which cannot be disproven will always be senseless. if you choose to base your life on senseless propositions, that's your choice. but don't tell me it has more merit than a life led with intellectual honesty.

and using personal experience to defend a rationally indefensible position is bad. eyewitness evidence is the weakest form of evidence in a court of law as it's notoriously unreliable. we see and hear things all the time because we simply want to. if someone wants a holy experience, i'll give them a hit of acid and take them to heaven or hell. it's just chemicals in our brains.

See, here we go again. Look, I NEVER said that because I am a religious believer that my life has more merit than a life led with intellectual honesty...EVER. I'm not using my own personal experience to say this is why people should become believers...I was saying this is one reason that made ME believe. If people are just going to piss on the things that happened to me personally, then don't ask me about them. I also could care less what you chose to believe/not believe and am not trying to get anyone else here to come over to my side of the fence.

It's like everyone here is asking the 2-3 Christians in this thread to answer questions so they can automatically attack their answers...this is why this thread was a bad idea from the beginning.

Isn't that the difference between Atheists and religious believers? If I ask you, you're going to say that my believing that my friend was saved by God is an irrational thought, because you don't believe in a God. If I tell the story to my Pastor or someone at church what are they going to think?

No no no, logic and reason is completely separate from belief, though that's not to say they cannot intertwine...they can. Atheism is not a dogma or belief, it is the rejection of theistic concepts due to lack of evidence and logic. An argument can be true because it is logically consistent or because of weight of evidence (they use weight of evidence in our judicial system). Your belief in god is irrational because of both logical flaws in christian dogma and lack of evidence. A double whammy.

A simple example of a good logical argument is:

1) Premise: All cars in this group are either red or blue.
2) The car I am looking at is not red.
3) Conclusion: Therefore, the car I am looking at is blue.

An example of a bad argument (illogical) is:

1) I have red hair and I am tall
2) My mother has brown hair and is short
3) Therefore, she is not my real mother.

Or,

1) Mice eat cheese and Cats eat mice
2) There is lots of cheese and no mice in our house
3) Therefore, we must have a cat

A good example of a logically sound argument that refutes the biblical god is called the problem of evil.

1) God is all-benevolent, all knowing, and all powerful.
2) Evil exists
3) If god was all-benevolent, he would not want evil to exist
4) If God was all-powerful, he would be capable of destroying evil
5) If god was all-knowing, he would know how to get rid of it
6) Therefore, because god has not gotten rid of it, he is either malevolent, limited in knowledge, or limited in power, or he does not exist.

Again, for the millionth time, if you want to call me irrational or whatever else, that's fine. It really doesn't matter to me and I don't let it get to me. I believe that Jesus Christ died for my sins and that there is a God. That doesn't make me a bad person or anything else, just like it doesn't make you a bad person that you share a different viewpoint.

Ya honestly man, it's not an insult and it's not personal. It just is. I'm not saying you are irrational or stupid or something. I'm saying religious belief is irrational. There is no question about this.

It's just as rational and reasonable to believe that an invisible teacup orbits the moon.

[quote] Example: Why is it that the US military refuses to study how well the Israeli army as faired in impossible fights. They have had either the most amazing luck OR God has been looking out for his chosen people. You will say it was luck and over blown, I will say it was God looking out for them.[/quote]

The Israeli army is 1000% better trained, funded and equipped than it's enemies. Also I'd you believe this then how do you explain the abscense of god when his 'chosen' people were being burned alive in ovens by the thousands?

[quote]Example: The Bible speaks of how the Jewish people would be without their land and then would get it back before it happened. How do you explain away that? I'm and 100% sure you will TRY.
[/quote]

I'll give it a shot...coincidence? How do you explain all the 100s of inconsistencies and stories in the bible that are not historic and didn't come to pass?

[quote]There is one thing I am absolutely sure of: You will stay on your side of the fence and I will stay on my side no matter what the other says. So what is the point of this convo?[/quote]
[/quote]

Don't take my posts the wrong way I just have strong opinions on the matter like you do, I am not trying to convince you to come over to my side of the fence, I enjoy intelligent healthy debate on the matter is all.

It's irrational because you can't see it, or there's no phyiscal proof. I get that. I guess if technology was like it is today 2000 years ago and you had video recorded documentation showing the miracles that one man performed while on this planet, we wouldn't be having this argument. Because unfortunately, there are no logical arguments to defend religion. My religion celebrates that man that lived 2000 years ago and the only proof that He was real is a book and stories...not physical proof. We are taking the word of people that lived 2000 years ago that have passed stories on from generation to generation that there was actually a man on this Earth that was capable of putting mud on a blind minds eyes and giving him sight, etc. That's obviously easily negated.

@mastertex (and others). I admire that you are putting up the good fight for what you believe in, but on this forum, your are not going to change people's minds. You are only going to get really frustrated....trying to defend what you believe in (which then stops feeling like a productive discussion). You believe what you believe, just as the others do.

The posters that I really respect, are the ones who put the same pessimistic tests to their own beliefs. I really liked reading the person who questions his own belief system (paraphrased), "But wait.....what was before the Big Bang." No one has the final answer, no matter how "scientific" they want to believe their answer is.

My Belief (and why I disagree with bashing other's religious beliefs)
I guess the label is "Agnostic" , I believe we cannot prove either way 100%.
But being completely honest, when the shit-hits-the-fan (possibly going to die), I have started praying like a biggest believer of something much bigger than ourselves. I think a lot of people are like this -- and thus, a lot of FAITH-Conversions happen when faced with death (just an example).

Even the most militant atheist is searching for the final answer IMO. The beginning of time (or was there a beginning) -- which is an unsolvable riddle.


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I always laughed at this part of Grizzly Man. The guy started getting really pissed (he wanted rain). He says he is "not religious", but he starts looking up and yelling that "if there is a God -- dump on us -- hurt us (RAIN)" and then starts yelling , "Jesus Boy, Christ Man, Alla, Hindu-Floaty-Thing."

........ AND when the miracle rain happens, he calls himself, "The Lord's Humble Servant", "Alla's Disciple", "The Floaty Thing's Gopher Boy".

This part of the movie is kind of comical, but there is something human about this, I think. Even NON-believers want to believe in something (a belief system).

And also, if you're using your "good logical argument" of we have red and blue cars, the car I'm not looking at is red so it must be blue, then how are you not calling ME irrational? Because if religion is irrational, and I believe in my religion, that would make me what? Irrational?

And also, if you're using your "good logical argument" of we have red and blue cars, the car I'm not looking at is red so it must be blue, then how are you not calling ME irrational? Because if religion is irrational, and I believe in my religion, that would make me what? Irrational?

Your belief in God is irrational. I still think it's unfair to call you irrational, as you obviously are rational to some extent.

And also, if you're using your "good logical argument" of we have red and blue cars, the car I'm not looking at is red so it must be blue, then how are you not calling ME irrational? Because if religion is irrational, and I believe in my religion, that would make me what? Irrational?

On the subject of religion, yes.

Ok, I'm done with this thread. Cheers everyone.

Cheers

And this goes the same way. Atheists are not able to look at it from our point of view either. Because you want to argue evolution, pick apart The Bible or say it's physically/scientifically impossible for a bush to catch on fire and speak to Moses and for him to part the water of the Red Sea to free his people. These are miracles that cannot be explained. The same holds true for a friend of the family who was diagnosed with pancriotic cancer, was given less than 6 months to live, battled and battled with chemo for months, and was told by doctors there was nothing else that could be done. He stopped chemo and was left for dead. The family brought in their pastor and turned to prayer. He's been cancer free now for 6+ years. There are just some things that cannot be explained, even though people want to try and convince me that I'm wrong/foolish until their blue in the face.

I'm the first to admit, you find a contradicion in The Bible, good for you. Any Christian who denies that The Bible has not been the most edited/translated book in history is a fool...yes, fool. King James, The Message, etc. They're all translated by someone who has different viewpoints of what things mean. You can read all you want, but until you see first hand of what God is capable of, none of this matters.

How is that that all these isolated examples get quoted all the time. You know of 1 guy that beat his cancer? how can you explain the millions of super reliqious people dying from cancer and other horrible diseases everyday? Young Daughters of religious people being kidnapped, raped and killed? why won't god answer their prayers?

I read recntly they beatified Pope John Paul II because some french nun prayed to him and her cancer was cured....again miracle? or the law of large numbers? if 30,000,000 sick people pray to you and 1 gets cured...thats a miracle? meh

How is that that all these isolated examples get quoted all the time. You know of 1 guy that beat his cancer? how can you explain the millions of super reliqious people dying from cancer and other horrible diseases everyday? Young Daughters of religious people being kidnapped, raped and killed? why won't god answer their prayers?

I read recntly they beatified Pope John Paul II because some french nun prayed to him and her cancer was cured....again miracle? or the law of large numbers? if 30,000,000 sick people pray to you and 1 gets cured...thats a miracle? meh

guess you didn't read ahead.