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Poker Video: Misc/Other by WiltOnTilt (Micro/Small Stakes)

So he would tell me to fuckoff, cool to know
Highstakes pros that don't coach aren't always like that you know, especially when you post on the same forums you'd be surprised how many are willing to chat and give you advice.

thats very true
we have a dutch pokerforum with 2 full tilt pro 1 of them is still very active in the forums
the other (rob hollink) used to be also. but isnt anymore

but always willing to talk poker even with the micro stakers

Well...

It's not like the DC coaches don't spend a ton of time on the forums giving free advice...

They're not sitting in their mansions sipping Kristal and laughing at us little folk.

They're not sitting in their mansions sipping Kristal and laughing at us little folk.

Really? I always imagined that's what Krantz has been doing over the last few years.

Well...

It's not like the DC coaches don't spend a ton of time on the forums giving free advice...

They're not sitting in their mansions sipping Kristal and laughing at us little folk.

thats true and i didnt mean it in a bad way
dc is also much larger then that dutch site so posting in every thread would be a 24/7 job here

It wasnt a joke

Or does your intuition automatically tell you advice=money and you autorefuse requests from people that want to talk poker and you even find the idea laughable?

Like if I'd ask you to add me on Skype because I am your fan and I think we have similar phylosophy towards poker would you seriously tell me to fuckoff (i na polite way) or want money first?

I think it was the implication in your post via the tone/wording that you'd try to hammer away on good players until they given in and give you some free gold that made it so few would take your post seriously. I think we made it clear that $ is not the primary objective for why we coach, but it is an objective. Also given the lengthy and detailed responses we often give on dc, it should also reinforce that idea. Like most things in life, I'm willing to help people if they need it, I'm just not willing to be taken advantage of and I think the wording of your post made it sound that way (and therefore must be a joke)

It wasnt a joke

I knew it wasn't a joke. That's why it is funny.

Hilarious to assume that people would want to give you free advice or be your internet friend after you 'harass...so much that they budge.'

And to recommend THAT over coaching....I mean ffs.

Thanks to both responses.

Since joining DC, what i have most realised is the ultra high level of thinking you guys have put into playing poker. This must have taken a lot of time and effort and of course intelligence to achieve, so you deserve every penny you get.

Nice video. I've also found students usually tend to be unwilling to send hands or questions in between sessions, although I guess I've also been guilty of this with my coaches. I don't know how you would handle a lot of IMs/e-mails having a lot of students though.

I do have a question although it's somewhat vague. I guess there comes a point after a lot of coaching where you start to regard your student as more of a colleague or friend, at which point it starts to feel awkward to keep charging him for talking poker and stuff. I mean it happened with you guys, right? So just curious about how that goes down, I guess you just come out and say it, or just stop charging the student?

Nice video. I've also found students usually tend to be unwilling to send hands or questions in between sessions, although I guess I've also been guilty of this with my coaches. I don't know how you would handle a lot of IMs/e-mails having a lot of students though.

I do have a question although it's somewhat vague. I guess there comes a point after a lot of coaching where you start to regard your student as more of a colleague or friend, at which point it starts to feel awkward to keep charging him for talking poker and stuff. I mean it happened with you guys, right? So just curious about how that goes down, I guess you just come out and say it, or just stop charging the student?

i don't recall us ever really having a conversation explicitly about it, i think it just became clear after a little while to me that there was a lot to be gained by both of us from discussing things. Sure, even when coaching noobs there is some benefits for the coach but in cases like this it didn't take long before I realized that the knowledge transfer wasn't one sided. I think it's one of those things where you just sort of "know" and it isn't an issue. We would (and still do) fairly regularly sweat each other to try to de-tilt and/or get opinions on how to adjust to different things certain opponents are doing etc. Getting these sort of poker friendships and contacts is pretty crucial to moving up the food chain imo.

Yeah, makes a lot of sense. Guess that could be some kind of motivation for students to be quite active and prepare themselves for sessions so the coach benefits more from the discussion and eventually it might be easier for them to relate to each other as colleagues, instead of just 'clowning' around. Good video, always enjoy watching content from you guys.

That's what I meant by harass, not anything intrusive by e.g. send a few messages to a person you got stuff in common or that you are a fan of. I mean what is there to lose? I know I wouldn't mind to have a devoted person that has a respect for my game trying to discuss poker. I got a couple people on my Skype who are good enough to not need income from coaching and vids at all (and do it just for fun with people they like, for free) and I would never ask them trivial spots. This one guy I have tremendous respect for and I have read everything he has ever written added me on Skype and I had tons of input and keep everything in a file and it would not even cross my mind to bother him with trivial shit that adds 0 value or creates no discussions...Forums or Pokerstrategy hand evaluation are good enough for that and I just ask him when I need to check on my direction or on new ideas or game changing more complex hands. And most people from the Portuguese poker prodigy to Swedish ballers and many other people I know got great through that sort of long term (free) relationship like this and playing a million hands, not really buying imited packages of coaching.

doc.lemon,

You opened with...

Guys would you recommend to get coaching, or harass great players so much that they budge, add you on skype and start talking poker with you?

...on a poker training site forum in the thread of a video about poker coaching practices.

After being met with resistance, you employ the age old arguing technique known as "well that's not what I meant." This is a commonly used technique used by confused girlfriends when faced with overwhelming logic during arguments about why the couple wouldn't spend every free moment together.

You then insult all coaches and video producers with this gem:

I got a couple people on my Skype who are good enough to not need income from coaching and vids at all

In the future, I'd recommend that you word your posts more carefully.

jk3a (why are you adding my nick now, is that adding emphasis or? seriously I would like to know I posted right above you and you didn't use it before. Your explanation will be much appreciated!)

Perception is a tricky thing. I don't get why I would suggest using an offensive invasive behavior to start a relationship that needs to be based on at least emotional benefits and positive feelings for the better player. I understand that the wording could have suggested that and for that I apologize, and I had the Portuguese guy or my approaches in mind (read his story fyi) and positive harassment when writing that. It appears that you have perceived this as a personal attack and selectively responded to parts of my posts and interpreted them literally. That's ok, I would just recommend to not make snap judgments. I know what I meant and I repeated it in the second post, I would appreciate if you could not disregard what I say completely

The second statement....well that is true sorry, Giggy or Niman said it countless times, and I bet WoT's situation is the same, their hourly at the tables is larger than total money from coaching and videos when you include preparation for vids and post coaching, and unlike many other people they don't have any trouble with putting in volume and are maniacs who still get the same excitement from playing 12h sessions as they did when they started, and the things they learn from students are very limited and the learning impact is lower than when they actually play... Much like adding enthusiastic people on their Skype and chatting with them and giving them advice, they do those things not because they need money but because its fun and allows them to socialise and feel good for giving back to the community (and to amuse themselves and others when making videos in the case of Giggy ;o).

So thank you for your recommendation, I will make sure I will not to require my readers to have to interpret my literal statements. Now let's get some serious discussion going, and why don't you e.g. tell us when was the last time you paid for coaching from somebody external that you aren't in contact with and compare the benefits of formal paid student-coach sessions over informal cooperation such as that of yourself and WoT (lack of bias? Paid coach has to make time? You can dictate and ask him for trivial or crazy spots without feel of emotion like embarrassment or wasting his time? You don't have to give and can just take and not waste time with chitchat? go nuts )

Thank you for your evaluation, and please don't be offended

LemOn

Guys would you recommend to get coaching, or harass great players so much that they budge, add you on skype and start talking poker with you?

I don't get why I would suggest using an offensive invasive behavior to start a relationship

Yea, we didn't get it either.

I will make sure I will not to require my readers to have to interpret my literal statements.

I literally have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

In this fun thread that you posted five months ago you "ask"

I was just wondering what players like that does DC have?

What are the top 6max instructors with booming longterm and recent 6max PTR whose graphs look simmilar to the mentioned guys that are consistently crushing with high volumes and are currently actively making vids on DC?

My response in the thread included the following...

Doc.lemon started this thread not to really ask a question but to make a point. I'm certain he had already done his homework. It would have been much better for everyone if he posted in a different format...i.e."idea for new coach(s) at DC," but it's understandable why he choose to communicate this way.

The same thing has happened here. When you originally "asked" whether Aaron and I recommend trying to befriend good players or pay for coaching, you weren't really asking because you wanted our opinion.

Similar to your previous thread, you are indirectly suggesting one option over an alternative in the form of a question. When I said 'it's understandable why he chose to communicate this way,' I simply meant that it makes you come across as much less of a troll in your original posts if you try to make your point in question form. This is also very similar to what you're doing here:

Now let's get some serious discussion going, and why don't you e.g. tell us when was the last time you paid for coaching from somebody external that you aren't in contact with and compare the benefits of formal paid student-coach sessions over informal cooperation such as that of yourself and WoT (lack of bias? Paid coach has to make time? You can dictate and ask him for trivial or crazy spots without feel of emotion like embarrassment or wasting his time? You don't have to give and can just take and not waste time with chitchat? go nuts )

So obviously you feel that befriending good players is better than formal coaching. Like you said perception is a tricky thing. You perceive that befriending is better. This is definitely true for you and probably for some other people as well.

While it may be possible for you to get poker advice for free, it's simply not an either or situation. There's certainly nothing wrong with politely trying to befriend a good player and get free advice, but that wouldn't work in most situations for a number of reasons.

I literally have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

That's because you're trying to interpret it, he already said this is not required of you.

That's because you're trying to interpret it, he already said this is not required of you.

Touche.

Is it possible to also offer here a MP3-version (audio only) as it is often offered regards to videos where are slides which are not so important to get the key points?
That would be cool^^

Old Poker Coaching FAQ thread: http://www.deucescracked.com/forums/19/topics/7346

Very interesting video

i love to see it......

Great content..