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Steppin Razor

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Section 9
2237 posts
Joined 12/2009

exactly. there are so many confounding factors that we can't identify any one factor as the cause, diet included. thus the point is irrelevant.


You don't have the necessary information, so you can't know how relevant it is. Diet in the case of past human development may be very relevant to life span. Not knowing how important it is does not equal it not being important.

I don't think the assumption that paleolithic man's diet is the correct one has sound footing. Maybe the science does, but I'm not willing to dismiss a possibility because I don't know how to assess it.

Unfortunately, I could only read the abstract of the trial. I'd be curious to know if they gave instructions beyond what to eat.




"According to the New York Times, Hatshepsut’s mummy is that of an obese, diabetic 50 year old woman with bad teeth. All the conditions that nutritionists today would have us believe would be prevented by Hatshepsut’s diet. It certainly didn’t work for her. And she is not a special case – most Egyptian mummies show the same disorders, especially the bad teeth. The skeletal remains of Paleolithic man, who consumed a meat-based diet, showed strong, perfect teeth. Bad teeth are the hallmark of carbohydrate consumption."
(http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/obesity/obesity-in-ancient-egypt/)


This seems like more bad logic. How many paleolithic remains do they have that are 50year old people? How do they know what Hatshepsut ate? Seems like they can only know what a typical Egyptian diet of the time was. What does the second sentence even mean? And what other factors could there have been for Egyptian rulers to have bad teeth?

Posted about 2 years ago

nawhead

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2484 posts
Joined 10/2009

You don't have the necessary information, so you can't know how relevant it is. Diet in the case of past human development may be very relevant to life span. Not knowing how important it is does not equal it not being important.


the methodology of the argument is irrelevant, not the data itself. if we can't pull out and isolate the data, we can't make a (good) argument on the data. but we're not limited to historical studies, we can perform clinical trials which are designed to isolate the relevant variables.

the video i linked was by the study's author as well. he goes through other studies that tried to find the same thing as well as the methodology of the study.

The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)

and here's the methodology of the study (the LEARN diet is the one most similar to the USDA food pyramid. but in practice, all the non-Atkins diets ended up grouping together by the end of the trial into "high carb/low fat" with similar ratios):

METHODS

Intervention

Participants were enrolled in 4 cohorts, with the first cohort starting in February 2003 and the last cohort starting in September 2004. Randomization was conducted in blocks of 24 (6 per treatment group) and occurred by having a blinded research technician select folded pieces of paper with group assignments from an opaque envelope. Participants were assigned 1 of 4 diet books: Dr Atkins' New Diet Revolution,8? Enter the Zone,9 The LEARN Manual for Weight Management,18? or Eat More, Weigh Less by Ornish.19

Each diet group attended 1-hour classes led by a registered dietitian once per week for 8 weeks and covered approximately one eighth of their respective books per class. The same dietitian taught all classes to all groups in all 4 cohorts and was rated by participants at the end of the 8-week sessions for enthusiasm and knowledge of the material (rating scale of 1-5, from "strongly disagree" to "strongly agree," respectively). The LEARN program is intended to be a 16-week program and, therefore, the 8 weeks of guidance through this book reflected an accelerated time frame, which was necessary to match the time frame given for the other 3 diet groups. Efforts to maximize retention in the study included e-mail and telephone reminders for appointments, e-mail or telephone contact from staff between the 2- and 6-month and between the 6- and 12-month data collection points, and incentive payments of $25, $50, and $75 for completing the 2-, 6-, and 12-month data collection, respectively.

Each group received specific target goals according to the emphasis of the assigned diet. The Atkins group aimed for 20 g/d or less of carbohydrate for "induction" (usually 2-3 months) and 50 g/d or less of carbohydrate for the subsequent "ongoing weight loss" phase. The Zone group's primary emphasis was a 40%-30%-30% distribution of carbohydrate, protein, and fat, respectively. The LEARN group was instructed to follow a prudent diet that included 55% to 60% energy from carbohydrate and less than 10% energy from saturated fat, caloric restriction, increased exercise, and behavior modification strategies. The primary emphasis for the Ornish group was no more than 10% of energy from fat. Additional recommendations given for physical activity, nutritional supplements, and behavioral strategies were consistent with those presented in each diet book.8?-9,18?-19 The guidelines for the Zone and LEARN diets incorporated specific goals for energy restriction, while for the Atkins and Ornish diets, there were no specific energy restriction goals.

A range of behavior modification techniques were discussed during the 2-month classes. The Ornish and Zone books suggest some stimulus-control strategies but on the whole do not emphasize behavior modification, whereas both the Atkins and LEARN books suggest multiple strategies, such as relapse preparation and planning strategies and goal setting. Overall, the LEARN manual has the greatest emphasis on behavior modification strategies.


re: http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/obesity/obesity-in-ancient-egypt/

This seems like more bad logic. How many paleolithic remains do they have that are 50year old people? How do they know what Hatshepsut ate? Seems like they can only know what a typical Egyptian diet of the time was. What does the second sentence even mean? And what other factors could there have been for Egyptian rulers to have bad teeth?


to answer the 3rd question in your barrage, "All the conditions that nutritionists today would have us believe would be prevented by Hatshepsut’s diet," means the conventional recommended diet of high in grains (they had it) and low in meats and fats (cattle was spared for labor) and sweets (sugar wasn't invented yet) would lead to a life free of obesity, diabetes, and tooth decay, but Hatshepsut was plagued by all three.

but the rest are really good questions also. we're back to picking apart confounding factors. it is more historical story-making. i guess all i can say is "the methodology of the argument is irrelevant, not the data itself. if we can't pull out and isolate the data, we can't make an argument on the data."

my bad. these type of arguments are so hard to resist. i was just testing you. Poke Tongue

Posted about 2 years ago

nawhead

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2484 posts
Joined 10/2009

the methodology of the argument is irrelevant, not the data itself. if we can't pull out and isolate the data, we can't make a (good) argument on the data. but we're not limited to historical studies, we can perform clinical trials which are designed to isolate the relevant variables.


this isn't entirely correct. observational studies are not a be all end all affair. if they were, then they would be as useful/useless? as fiction. but they are necessary for science, only we need to remember their proper role in the scientific method.

"[the observational study's] value is in generating hypotheses. ... The observational study demonstrates a correlation. ... Once we have the hypothesis, we can then do a randomize, placebo-controlled trial."
(http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/statistics/observational-studies-2/)

so it all comes back to the studies. we're looking at all these observations of paleo bones and how we think they lived and digging up Egyptian bones in order to make hypotheses. but those aren't separate arguments. we're simply using different observations to make the same hypothesis. what's important is testing that hypothesis. and paleo/low carb has been tested and been found worthy in big trials and little trials.

Posted about 2 years ago

Steppin Razor

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Section 9
2237 posts
Joined 12/2009



METHODS

"
Each group received specific target goals according to the emphasis of the assigned diet. The Atkins group aimed for 20 g/d or less of carbohydrate for "induction" (usually 2-3 months) and 50 g/d or less of carbohydrate for the subsequent "ongoing weight loss" phase. The Zone group's primary emphasis was a 40%-30%-30% distribution of carbohydrate, protein, and fat, respectively. The LEARN group was instructed to follow a prudent diet that included 55% to 60% energy from carbohydrate and less than 10% energy from saturated fat, caloric restriction, increased exercise, and behavior modification strategies. The primary emphasis for the Ornish group was no more than 10% of energy from fat. Additional recommendations given for physical activity, nutritional supplements, and behavioral strategies were consistent with those presented in each diet book.8?-9,18?-19 The guidelines for the Zone and LEARN diets incorporated specific goals for energy restriction, while for the Atkins and Ornish diets, there were no specific energy restriction goals.


Man, I wish they'd be consistent in their numbers. Grams, percent consumed, percent of energy source - pick one dammit. Scientists :rolleyes:. Poke Tongue

i guess all i can say is "the methodology of the argument is irrelevant, not the data itself. if we can't pull out and isolate the data, we can't make an argument on the data."


I agree that one can't make an argument on the data. That's why the assumption/argument that the paleo diet is inherently right for us because paleo man ate it isn't supportable. The merits of the diet may be real, the supposition that it's the 'correct' diet not so much.

my bad. these type of arguments are so hard to resist. i was just testing you. Poke Tongue


no worries. I've got an open mind, but I don't make it up easily. And I can't resist pointing out weaknesses in a quote/argument, even when I don't care that much.

Posted about 2 years ago

Peesocake

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948 posts
Joined 02/2007

Peesocake

there needs to be more trials done with HFCS/sugar compared to all carbs, and we don't know for sure. Is Sugar Toxic?" By GARY TAUBES in The New York Times April 13, 2011



Interesting article, thanks.

Basically, carbs have been eaten for a long time, for thousands of years diets have been based on it (I'm thinking about the dutch peasants and their potatoes Smile ), and things seemed alright, although we don't know for sure, but since consuming excess sugar like HFCS, things have gone bad. It may be simplistic, and it's nothing new, but it makes a lot of sense. In that respect though, cutting out on rice or pasta entirely seems excessive too, but who knows.
On the other hand, perhaps it's not only sugar that's causing all these diseases, but the fact that people are mass consuming diseased meat, for one.
To me, it makes sense that it's not 1 ingredient of the modern diet that's causing us trouble, it's the quality of the whole diet: eating excess sugar, very bad quality meat, massproduced vegetables in artificial soils and lighting, pesticides, growth hormones, unnatural feeding of cattle, preservatives, colourings, taste enhancers etc etc. No wonder we die a gruesome death.
Not having a balanced diet, or being conscious of what you eat, and acting on it, is a disease in itself, that ultimately manifests itself physically.

Posted about 2 years ago

nawhead

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2484 posts
Joined 10/2009

mitch

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2007 posts
Joined 01/2008

Tucker Max is on the bandwagon. Dude's a clown but this interview was pretty interesting/entertaining.

http://www.adultswim.com/blog/interviews/celeb-nerdy-tucker-max.html

Posted about 2 years ago

DonkHero

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1155 posts
Joined 07/2008

this makes so much sense and is pretty easy to do

cut out HFCS, soda, sugar, grains, [color=red]alcohol[/color=red] and eat meat, beans, seeds, healthy oils and vegetables often



/thread for me.

Posted about 2 years ago

z324739

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Section 9
382 posts
Joined 03/2008

Pump

Time for results ? Anyone ?

Not following this diet faithfully all the time, but still seeing good results as loosing fat, getting leaner.

Missing pasta/bread though...

Posted almost 2 years ago

SnappieVouz

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2593 posts
Joined 03/2009

primal blueprint is the royal flush for me

Posted almost 2 years ago

n0whereman

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2853 posts
Joined 01/2008

i would also recommend the lemon detox and epson salts cleanse before starting this, will rid your body of a lot of shit and allow you to reset your system

poker and bet



errors in this post:

1) spam
2) it's epsom, not epson
3) ridding your body of toxins is some the most ridiculously pseudoscience bullshit around, and that's saying something in this field

Posted almost 2 years ago

Chazb0t

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1816 posts
Joined 01/2009

shades

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846 posts
Joined 06/2008

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/06/17/why-does-the-us-have-the-highest-rate-of-cancer-in-the-world.aspx



Thanks , nice link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BN1jSpiyIM

Posted almost 2 years ago

spotDEspot

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910 posts
Joined 06/2008

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread. I have been considering a lifestyle change for some time and this thread and the P90x thread have prompted me to stop procrastinating - largely because what I have read here and the linked references have opened my eyes and given me a clear direction.

Let's see how I get on!

Posted almost 2 years ago

Chazb0t

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1816 posts
Joined 01/2009




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