rubbishaka80
549 posts
Joined 07/2007
I like the following form for EV if called more:
ev = -180 + 37% ($400) instead of ev = 37%($220) + 63%(-$180)
I think it's more straight forward, you see what you risk, your equity and the whole pot.
You didn't mention that while our equity shoving AT is worse, we won't get called as often since we block two of the cards that he needs to call. Therefore our fold equity is better.
In fact, since we don't block anything with 95s, he would call a little more, because on average every time he gets 5bet there will be a partial blocker involved.
Posted over 2 years ago
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GreatPwnerer
67 posts
Joined 10/2008
Your math is i believe wrong due to an incorrect assumption. When BTN is 4-beting 10% of the time it does not mean he is 4-betting 10% range , it means he 4-bets 10% of the times he is 3-bet.
So if BTN opens 50% of hands and 4-bets 10% it means he is 4-betting 10% of those 50% of hands which is 5% of all hands. So he is folding only (5-4.7)/5=0.3/5 = 6% of the time. With this low FE we need to do math all over.
Posted over 2 years ago
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TwoDolphins
23 posts
Joined 06/2009
Is your 10% 4bet actually 4bet-range of 10% (also available in HEM) or actual 4bet%? If it's 4bet%, his 4bet range is actually 10% of total opening range. It may deviate when he's on button, but if he's actually 4betting 10% of his stealing range of 50% that equals only 5% leaving us no fold equity.
Posted over 2 years ago
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jk3a
898 posts
Joined 01/2008
Is your 10% 4bet actually 4bet-range of 10% (also available in HEM) or actual 4bet%? If it's 4bet%, his 4bet range is actually 10% of total opening range. It may deviate when he's on button, but if he's actually 4betting 10% of his stealing range of 50% that equals only 5% leaving us no fold equity.
I realize the diff between 4bet % and 4bet range. The 4bet % # is all encompassing for every time he gets 3bet, right? So for the example, I'm assuming he's 4betting a total of 10% of hands.
Sorry if the way I said it was confusing or misleading. Unless HEM has a 4bet by position stat, I'm not sure we can get an exact 4betting % on the btn just by using 4bet % and steal %.
Also, it's just an example to give everyone an idea of what 5 bet shoving ev looks like. For example I know that my btn steal is over 50 at 6max and my 4bet % is actually 10 thru a large sample and I 4 bet bluff a bunch.
Posted over 2 years ago
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jk3a
898 posts
Joined 01/2008
I like the following form for EV if called more:
ev = -180 + 37% ($400) instead of ev = 37%($220) + 63%(-$180)
I think it's more straight forward, you see what you risk, your equity and the whole pot.
You didn't mention that while our equity shoving AT is worse, we won't get called as often since we block two of the cards that he needs to call. Therefore our fold equity is better.
In fact, since we don't block anything with 95s, he would call a little more, because on average every time he gets 5bet there will be a partial blocker involved.
good point about card removal, when we have an Ax hand, we eliminate 4 combos each from their Ax value range. However, you didn't mention that having Ax also will theoretically reduce the number of ways he's bluffing since alot of people like to use Ax to 4bet bluff
. Not sure what the net result is, nor if it matters.
your ev calc def might look more clean/be easier to understand for some. I mentioned at the end of the vid that there are other ways.
Posted over 2 years ago
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hurt
66 posts
Joined 05/2008
I realize the diff between 4bet % and 4bet range. The 4bet % # is all encompassing for every time he gets 3bet, right? So for the example, I'm assuming he's 4betting a total of 10% of hands.
Sorry if the way I said it was confusing or misleading. Unless HEM has a 4bet by position stat, I'm not sure we can get an exact 4betting % on the btn just by using 4bet % and steal %.
Also, it's just an example to give everyone an idea of what 5 bet shoving ev looks like. For example I know that my btn steal is over 50 at 6max and my 4bet % is actually 10 thru a large sample and I 4 bet bluff a bunch.
If your 4bet% in holdem manager is 10, it means you are 4betting 10% of your opening range. So say you are stealing something like 60% on the button, you are only 4betting 6% of hands. In reality it is probably more than 6% of hands because you 4bet more on the button than other positions but you get the point. In order for your equity calcs to be correct you need to use the 4bet-range statistic in holdem manager, not the 4bet%.
Posted over 2 years ago
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jk3a
898 posts
Joined 01/2008
If your 4bet% in holdem manager is 10, it means you are 4betting 10% of your opening range. So say you are stealing something like 60% on the button, you are only 4betting 6% of hands. In reality it is probably more than 6% of hands because you 4bet more on the button than other positions but you get the point. In order for your equity calcs to be correct you need to use the 4bet-range statistic in holdem manager, not the 4bet%.
4bet % is (times you 4bet)/(times you get 3bet)
4bet range is Pre Flop Raise % x 4 Bet %
If I open btn 50% and 4bet 10%, this does not mean I'm 4betting 5% of hands. The 4bet % is not relative to position.
You need the positional 4bet %s to make the ev calcs 'correct.' So In my database @ 2/4, If I filter for just hands on the btn and add raise 3bet, I find that my stat is 16%. When combined with my 59% steal, we learn my 4bet "range" from the btn is 9.4%. (disclaimer, this isn't perfectly accurate because the 4bet % doesn't just include steal attempts)
You will def see regs with overall 4bet %s in the teens and 20s which implies their steal position 4bet is even higher yielding #s just like the 10% I used in the example. Again, sorry if I didn't make it clear in the vid.
Posted over 2 years ago
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nilaynilay
23 posts
Joined 08/2008
bachis
408 posts
Joined 05/2009
jk3a
898 posts
Joined 01/2008
So if we look at our hud and he has 10% at the 4b % stat this is not the same situation that we just calculated. Cause this is him 4betting 10% of his opening range from all positions right?
4bet % is (times you 4bet)/(times you get 3bet)
Posted over 2 years ago
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nervy
237 posts
Joined 03/2010
jk3a
898 posts
Joined 01/2008
4bet % is (times you 4bet)/(times you get 3bet)
4bet range is Pre Flop Raise % x 4 Bet %
If I open btn 50% and 4bet 10%, this does not mean I'm 4betting 5% of hands. The 4bet % is not relative to position.
You need the positional 4bet %s to make the ev calcs 'correct.' So In my database @ 2/4, If I filter for just hands on the btn and add raise 3bet, I find that my stat is 16%. When combined with my 59% steal, we learn my 4bet "range" from the btn is 9.4%. (disclaimer, this isn't perfectly accurate because the 4bet % doesn't just include steal attempts)
You will def see regs with overall 4bet %s in the teens and 20s which implies their steal position 4bet is even higher yielding #s just like the 10% I used in the example. Again, sorry if I didn't make it clear in the vid.
Posted over 2 years ago
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rune0714
16 posts
Joined 10/2009
jk3a
898 posts
Joined 01/2008