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blah234

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2602 posts
Joined 12/2009

Were you actually winning over a decent samplesize from the blinds - or do you know one?



I had about 1bb/100 from sb and less than -1bb/100 from bb at 200NL over around 48k hands.

Playing OOP doesn't matter if villain doesn't know how to use position well. You shouldn't be afraid to play OOP vs your average reg with a super wide preflop range.

Posted over 6 years ago

CF23

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Joined 10/2008


Playing OOP doesn't matter if villain doesn't know how to use position well. You shouldn't be afraid to play OOP vs your average reg with a super wide preflop range.



could you expand on that, please?
how do i know if villain uses position well? does that mean once i know they don't, i should try to outplay them as much as possible?

Posted over 6 years ago

Tackleberry

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3561 posts
Joined 10/2009

I had about 1bb/100 from sb and less than -1bb/100 from bb at 200NL over around 48k hands.


Variance?

I mean seriously, what´s your VPIP from BB? Let´s be it 25% for the sake of simplicity. That means for every hand you play from BB you have to compensate the loss of the previous 3bb you folded. That means you have to have a winrate of 3bb/100 for every (!) hand you play to break-even overall from that position. Right? That means, as your winrate should be highest at BTN, it has to be sth. in the ballpark of 10bb/100 on the BTN-position (to reach an average of 6bb/100 over all positions), correct? The winrate at BTN should be waaaaaaaaay higher, probably sth. along the lines of at least 30bb/100 over the longterm (what again meant that would average to sth. like 18bb/100 over all positions - not realistic at NL200 imho).

Playing OOP doesn't matter if villain doesn't know how to use position well. You shouldn't be afraid to play OOP vs your average reg with a super wide preflop range.


With all given respect, but that just isn´t true (and tbh, quotes like that strike me as little helpful, to not say dangerous). Using position to one´s advantage is no rocket-science, and "not using position well" - in terms of not maximizing the use of position - still doesn´t suddenly turn the natural advantage of position into a disadvantage, it just reduces the advantage.

Tell me if / where I´m wrong.

Posted over 6 years ago

Fresh_David

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317 posts
Joined 10/2009

-20BB/100 from the BB is considered the average for a winning TAG.

When i was a loosing 50NL player, i use to loose -40BB/100 from the BB.

If someone doesn't feel comfortable playing OOP (c/raising a wide range), I guess increasing his 3bets from Sb/BB can help. (taking the lead with a good value range, making few semi-bluffs with Axs/Kxs/Small PPs)

Stealing from Sb vs BB helps too. People fold too much / don't 3bet often enought to defend, even if they got position vs a pretty wide range. Paradoxically, I am kinda chocked to see pleople playing 27/25 from the SB. This is almost as wide as their BU opening range, and they are OOP every single time.

Taking the lead / stealing limped pots , is also very good for the BB winrate.

Posted over 6 years ago

mike1601

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277 posts
Joined 01/2008

Great thread!

Damn i bleed $ from the blinds. waaaay to many
Other great videos that the one mentioned in this thread, that good for learning to play better in the blinds?

Posted over 6 years ago

DireStr88

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Joined 08/2010

-20/-10 is certainly achievable at SSNL, if you're -30/-20 it could be for a number of reasons, but calling too much in the SB, not squeezing enough in the BB when the SB calls, 3betting overpairs and AK vs UTG and HJ OOP, set mining vs UTG and HJ OOP (It's -EV in the SB unless the PFR or the BB is a fish) and not stealing from the SB vs. multi-tablers with auto-fold in the BB enough (My ATS from the SB was 57% at 200nl) are the normal leaks I see.

You can probably 3bet or fold in the SB vs CO and BTN and increase your winrate there, the rest of your winrate is going to have to come from BTN vs BB and learning how to play HU properly. I wouldn't put too much stock in 2p2 threads, one of the things you have to remember is that most of their stats are the same because most of their games are the same (and they have absolutely massive leaks OOP)

Posted over 6 years ago

DireStr88

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Joined 08/2010

Variance?

I mean seriously, what´s your VPIP from BB? Let´s be it 25% for the sake of simplicity. That means for every hand you play from BB you have to compensate the loss of the previous 3bb you folded. That means you have to have a winrate of 3bb/100 for every (!) hand you play to break-even overall from that position. Right? That means, as your winrate should be highest at BTN, it has to be sth. in the ballpark of 10bb/100 on the BTN-position (to reach an average of 6bb/100 over all positions), correct? The winrate at BTN should be waaaaaaaaay higher, probably sth. along the lines of at least 30bb/100 over the longterm (what again meant that would average to sth. like 18bb/100 over all positions - not realistic at NL200 imho).


With all given respect, but that just isn´t true (and tbh, quotes like that strike me as little helpful, to not say dangerous). Using position to one´s advantage is no rocket-science, and "not using position well" - in terms of not maximizing the use of position - still doesn´t suddenly turn the natural advantage of position into a disadvantage, it just reduces the advantage.

Tell me if / where I´m wrong.




I've seen it done, put a 1knl HU reg in the BB vs a 200nl 6max reg on the BTN and I'd be willing to bet the HU reg can/will turn a profit, you can really get away with murder at 200nl because the regs are incredibly bad multi-tablers compared to the 400nl + regs.

Posted over 6 years ago

Tackleberry

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3561 posts
Joined 10/2009

I've seen it done, put a 1knl HU reg in the BB vs a 200nl 6max reg on the BTN and I'd be willing to bet the HU reg can/will turn a profit, you can really get away with murder at 200nl because the regs are incredibly bad multi-tablers compared to the 400nl + regs.


I agree with that, but that´s a different story, as the open-ranges in HU (that we´re facing in BB) obviously are way weaker than in 6max.

Posted over 6 years ago

1BYONE

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5528 posts
Joined 05/2009

-20/-10 is certainly achievable at SSNL, if you're -30/-20 it could be for a number of reasons, but calling too much in the SB, not squeezing enough in the BB when the SB calls, 3betting overpairs and AK vs UTG and HJ OOP, set mining vs UTG and HJ OOP (It's -EV in the SB unless the PFR or the BB is a fish) and not stealing from the SB vs. multi-tablers with auto-fold in the BB enough (My ATS from the SB was 57% at 200nl) are the normal leaks I see.



Bingo. Thats exactly the different spots where I need to work on. Tx for poiting it out.

Posted over 6 years ago

mike1601

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277 posts
Joined 01/2008

great post Direstr88

Could you go a little more in to detail with "3betting overpairs and AK ....."

Posted over 6 years ago

Fresh_David

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317 posts
Joined 10/2009

3betting overpairs and AK vs UTG and HJ OOP



The idea is to flat JJ+/AK in the BB vs Utg open. You rep so much strenght by 3betting this range vs UTG, that u get way too many folds, and can not maximize the equity of that range.

Posted over 6 years ago

DireStr88

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1419 posts
Joined 08/2010

The idea is to flat JJ+/AK in the BB vs Utg open. You rep so much strenght by 3betting this range vs UTG, that u get way too many folds, and can not maximize the equity of that range.



Yeah, basically if you're not 3betting UTG OOP as a bluff then you can't 3bet UTG OOP for value either, "You can't bluff a board you wouldn't bet for value" - Phil Galfond also translates into "You can't value bet a board you wouldn't bet as a bluff" because your range is transparent. Altho', maybe that just means you should 3bet UTG OOP like a maniac, but 3betting an opponent at the top of his range OOP is probably a sketchy idea so flatting just protects your range nicely and makes you unreadable in the blinds (or less readable).

Posted over 6 years ago

velvia

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730 posts
Joined 10/2009

I've made some research earlier about this and found in a coaching vid that you should be better than
-15 bb/100 in SB and
-30 bb/100 in BB
But I'd be also curious about the opinion of winning DC coaches in this matter

Posted over 6 years ago

Ass Get to Jigglin

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4301 posts
Joined 10/2010

Yeah, basically if you're not 3betting UTG OOP as a bluff then you can't 3bet UTG OOP for value either, "You can't bluff a board you wouldn't bet for value" - Phil Galfond also translates into "You can't value bet a board you wouldn't bet as a bluff" because your range is transparent. Altho', maybe that just means you should 3bet UTG OOP like a maniac, but 3betting an opponent at the top of his range OOP is probably a sketchy idea so flatting just protects your range nicely and makes you unreadable in the blinds (or less readable).



DireStr88 - kind of of topic, but what Galfond Vids do you recommend other than the Philosophy ones? Any specific live play vids that you found particularly good?

Posted over 6 years ago

DireStr88

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1419 posts
Joined 08/2010

Honestly, the man has never made a bad video, but if there's one video that stands to mind it's his HU video(s) vs. David Benyamine.

Posted over 6 years ago




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