General Discussion Poker Forums

My friend and I got into a debate where he basically states that if your ptr is not winning (but your hem shows that you're winning), then people wouldn't believe that you're a winning player. I argued that relying on PTR's graph is a lol nooby mistake cuz you have no clue when ptr started the tracking, thus, whatever you see on ptr is basically pretty far from the real graph of the player.

Unless you're trying to get staking (in which case HM should be sufficient, as long as you allow thorough scrutiny) why does it matter if someone thinks you're a winner or not? I couldn't care less if someone thought I was the balla-est or the busto-est. If they're playing in the same games as me it may even be to my benefit if they think I'm the busto-est.

The problem is, PTR already datamines the HH's, so they're gaining nothing.

I am sure that the holecards in non-showdown pots are where the money is. And PTR can't get that from observing tables.

But, to elabortae on the the purpose of raising this "missing" feature;
I said something along the lines of:

"I think if they tried that they'd get the door closed on them pretty quick."

I'm submitting the absence of this feature as heresay evidence that they may have a nod and a wink deal going on with the networks.

I am sure that the holecards in non-showdown pots are where the money is. And PTR can't get that from observing tables.

But, to elabortae on the the purpose of raising this "missing" feature;
I said something along the lines of:

"I think if they tried that they'd get the door closed on them pretty quick."

I'm submitting the absence of this feature as heresay evidence that they may have a nod and a wink deal going on with the networks.

Though if you could upload your own database you could make up some fake hands that would show you as a loosing player with wild stats or something and that would pretty much make PTR kinda worthless?
Edit: I don't like PTR btw.

I'm submitting the absence of this feature as heresay evidence that they may have a nod and a wink deal going on with the networks.

But, afaik you´re getting punished from FTP when they detect (I was even amazed to hear that they obv. can do that and do it!!) that you use PTR while having FT-client open, i.e. to check an oppponent before sitting down with him at the HU-table?

Overall, I´m not a big fan of PTR but I just take it as part of the game. I´d as well wish that all regs (except me) would be banned from playing - but that doesn´t happen either. So I have to live with it and take it how it comes.

But, afaik you´re getting punished from FTP when they detect (I was even amazed to hear that they obv. can do that and do it!!) that you use PTR while having FT-client open, i.e. to check an oppponent before sitting down with him at the HU-table?

I, and several other players I know, have done this MANY times before, and I've never heard anything from Full Tilt about this. I don't know if it is against the T&Cs, but I don't think they can detect it. I've never bought HHs, but I've used PTR to see if opponents are winners at the levels they're playing at.

Overall, I´m not a big fan of PTR but I just take it as part of the game. I´d as well wish that all regs (except me) would be banned from playing - but that doesn´t happen either. So I have to live with it and take it how it comes.

Exactly. I think tubasteve said this in one of his videos - it's a prisoner's dilemma. If you don't use it to a certain extent, you're at a disadvantage to the players that do. It probably reduces everyone's winrate, but there's nothing we can do about it.

At the end of the day, we can debate all we like over whether it's right or ethical or good/bad for the games, but the fact is that it does exist, and we have to deal with it.

I, and several other players I know, have done this MANY times before, and I've never heard anything from Full Tilt about this. I don't know if it is against the T&Cs, but I don't think they can detect it.

1) It is mentioned in their T&Cs:

http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/de/prohibited_programs.php

Prohibited programs

2. Programs or services that provide additional information on opponents that a player would not normally be privy to:

Certain programs, websites, and subscription services provide extra information on opponents which may not be used during play. For example, the use of shared databases of tournament histories, results, and statistics are not permitted. Specific examples include:

* SharkScope
* Top Shark
* Smart Buddy
* Poker Table Ratings

2) Their T&Cs farther state that they may take steps to detect wether you use prohibited software (to prevent collusion!) and I´m pretty sure that it´s a) technically possible and b) actually done:

[b]Site Terms:
9. [...] You agree that Full Tilt Poker may take steps to detect and prevent the use of prohibited EPA programs. These steps may include, but are not limited to, examination of software programs running concurrently with the Full Tilt Poker software on the player’s computer.

Afaik, they do track which websites you visit (PS did that as well earlier but stopped it once players got knowledge about it and complained about it) and there are cases where players report that they got their account temporarily banned, maybe I´ll find some ...

I should probably stop doing that then. Don't want to get banned or anything.

But doesn't the prohibited programs part refer specifically to buying hand histories? I thought that's what was implied by the T&Cs using PTR as an example of a shared database and statistics.

And it's fine if they can detect what software you're running, but actually being able to check what websites you're visiting as well?

Its mainly a HU issue tho which can be extremely annoying if you have a good graph noone will ever sit with you. I dislike PTR btw, think its inaccurate and to me it somehow seems very unfair to buy millions of HH for stats. Especially on the lower stakes where everyone has obvious leaks in there stats it can be a big deal if you get to have them in your hud for free.

IMO, Full Tilt and Poker Stars need to eliminate screen names and replace them with a randomly generated screen name every time the player sits down at a new table, it'd protect the games from bumhunting and casual players from being at a disadvantage without knowing what PTR, PT3/HEM, Table and Player Trackers, Poker Razor or Poker Stove are.

Honestly, nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing good has come out of PTR, Table and Player Trackers or HUDs, all they do is reduce action, harass players and minimize observation. IMO, eliminating all of this stuff is better for the games, it's completely unethical

IMO, Full Tilt and Poker Stars need to eliminate screen names and replace them with a randomly generated screen name every time the player sits down at a new table, it'd protect the games from bumhunting and casual players from being at a disadvantage without knowing what PTR, PT3/HEM, Table and Player Trackers, Poker Razor or Poker Stove are.

But one of the central parts of poker is developing reads on players and learning how best to play against each individual. Changing screen names like that would eliminate so much of this. You could MAYBE make an argument for banning HEM/PT3 to help avoid datamining etc, but changing people's screen names 20 times a day is ridiculous IMO.

[...]but changing people's screen names 20 times a day is ridiculous IMO.

Agree - it´s like I´m playing live in a casino and everybody sits behind a wall or gets a mask so I can´t see him / recognize him next time he sits down.

You should be able to create an image and to develop reads vs. an opponent while they play at the table with you, but you shouldn't be able to follow that player around from table to table and sit on his left once you know you have an edge on him or once you've PTRed him, loaded hand histories into your HUD and added him to your buddy list. I'm sorry, but 99% of poker players are bum hunters, when people think table selection vs. fish is more important than being able to compete with regulars the game loses a lot of its credibility.

Maybe it's just because I come from a competitive background, but I grew up being taught that I should only play against the best and constantly improve myself as a player, not pad my bottom line vs. n00bs (altho' the former leads to the latter in the long run IMO vs. the bumhunters).

I'd be 100% for anonymous poker, I'd love to be able to play HU again in a world where the regs refuse to sit you because your PTR is positive.

Agree - it´s like I´m playing live in a casino and everybody sits behind a wall or gets a mask so I can´t see him / recognize him next time he sits down.

Although it would be nice to have our identities hidden, i agree.

Unless you're trying to get staking (in which case HM should be sufficient, as long as you allow thorough scrutiny) why does it matter if someone thinks you're a winner or not? I couldn't care less if someone thought I was the balla-est or the busto-est. If they're playing in the same games as me it may even be to my benefit if they think I'm the busto-est.

what's your sn?

what's your sn?

HenryHatsworth on Boss Media. Good luck with the PTR search.