Small Stakes Shorthanded NL Poker Forums

Hi,

Full Tilt Poker $1/$2 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players - View hand 504331
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

Hero (BTN): $200.00
SB: $311.75
BB: $218.55
UTG: $127.70
CO: $194.00

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is BTN with 9 7
2 folds, Hero raises to $6, SB calls $5, BB calls $4

Flop: ($18.00) 6 Q K (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $12, SB calls $12, BB folds

Turn: ($42.00) 4 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: ($42.00) 9 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $30, SB calls $30

Villain is 28/21/40%aggrf/7.5 3-bet over 154 hands. He played some hands against me and 3-betted me a decent amount of times. I felt like that, he's a very good TAG who tried to exploit me by playing aggressively.

I oversaw that we were 3-way, so I c-betted. Villain could call with a decent amount of hands like Kx/Qx. He could also call with JT or flushdraws with Ax hoping BB to call.

At the turn, I'm giving up. At the river, I'd normally put him on a thin v-bet. If he's good, though, he could put me on a bet with busted draws as well as thin v-bets as well (which could him make calling KJ or stuff). So, I should probably just c/b, as his range is more leant towards value hands than busted draws.

first thing that pops in my mind when i see the river bet is what are you trying to get value from? 6, 4, or worse 9? are you really folding out better? i just don't see much value in betting the river.

since you did bet, lets not make it completely worthless and if he shows up with a Q or something worse, then we know we can take a bet check bet line for value when we actually do have a decent hand.

I think there isnt many Kx in his range vbut there really should be that many pocket pairs in his range too.

I think in this spot vs a villina like this getting to showdonw is really important. See if he decides not to lead hands like kx or Qx on the river and find out whats in his CC range.

Giving up on the turn is fine, and I wouldn't deviate from that on the river.

Giving up on the turn is fine, and I wouldn't deviate from that on the river.

Depends if you can get villian to fold.

If I realise villain never has Kx in his flop calling range I like bluffing the river. Though when you pair your 9 I dont think you need to do this.

Giving up on the turn is fine

nooo
if you cbet i would fire this turn 100%

but as i said in the other thread: back up your plays
97o sucks, c/f flop

nooo
if you cbet i would fire this turn 100%

but as i said in the other thread: back up your plays
97o sucks, c/f flop

wait why are you firing this turn (assuming this isnt 97o)100%, and what range are you doing this with?

also do you never pot control duffte?

I implement a bet/check/bet line as a bluff but by that I have to pot control my marginal hands like QJ or JJ on this turn.

I can just see soooooo many players slowplaying preflop/flop vs you coz you tend to barrel a lot!

We have no equity on the turn. So we are relying on immediate fold equity, or fold equity by the river, after opening otb, when there is draws out and villain is taking a bluff catching line.

I implement a bet/check/bet line as a bluff but by that I have to pot control my marginal hands like QJ or JJ on this turn.

wouldnt you control those on the flop?

by checking the turn with air you invite him to either bluff you off that on the river or c/c better.

wait why are you firing this turn (assuming this isnt 97o)100%, and what range are you doing this with?

KQ high = nobody hits it, but me
so we need outs against Kx, for the rare times he has it
AJ AT Kx oesd 6x (flushdraws)

and yes you can bet 97o and barrel, but it's close and when i see you check the turn and bet the river i think: fold (pre)flop

wouldnt you control those on the flop?

That really depends on villain and our history .

Tbh maybe checking this flop with QJ JJ is better. I tend to bet them more than check them just because I rarely think I get bluffed into, and since I dont check back much air on the flop I dont see this ever happening.

I rtend to just bet and take the dead $$$ but then I guess that leaves my other lines looking more pot controlly coz I cant barrel QJ for 3streets most of the time ^^

In terms of your turn betting range, do you open all Kxs hands OTB and are you really betting hands like K3s on the turn as a standard?

let's call it inducing a bluff and not potcontrolling. we are IP and can take the free sd. to potcontrol this really makes no sense in my eyes, to induce.. maybe:


can we expect bluffs on this board from a flopcheck with K3s?

our range to check back and continue the turn is too strong imo, yes there will be some backdoordraws that we couldve catched up on.. but can we expect more value from this? i doubt it, we are more likely to fold our hand imo

can we expect bluffs on the river after a cbet+turncheck with K7s? yes.
can we give up the equity? yes
is K7s the best hand to do this with or is it the weaker madehand part?
can we give up the equity with our weaker part?

this is multiway btw

yeah I did mean inducing

the problem is you dont induce much when you check back a KQx flop because most of the time you turn your hand face up and most villain wont bluff into you.

thats why I prefer betting the flop and inducing more on the turn with hands like QJ and JJ. (but from the sounds of it you were pointing that out).

ie. you bet JJ on KQx flop rather than check it....

But as you said this was mulitway so it changes things slightly, and probably make hit worse to bluf catch because your flop cbetting range should be stronger.

argh its late here. im going to sleep now. cant think properly lol.

duffte maybe i'm misunderstanding your point, but it appears you are saying we need to barrel this turn 100% if we cb this flop? so we can take the hand down and prevent getting exploited?

but regardless if you cbet this turn are you always 3barreling? (if so i sorta like it if villain is reg thinking player enough to fold weak kings and obv queens etc to 3 barrels)

if not 3 barreling then i'm not convinced we need to barrel this particular turn 100% if cbeting this flop. tho im not clear on both blinds reads, i don't think this is a horrible flop to cbet even if it is multiway. two over cards help to fold out some pp's and whatever else these blinds are calling and it hits our perceived range. much better than just xkx since we will often have to two barrel to fold out pp's etc.

i don't like this particular turn card. it's such a blank villain probably calls turn with everything he called flop. the only way i like this is if you are going for 3 barrel.

i think it's fine to give up on this turn. depending on my read potentially take bet/check/bet line, and check back especially in this hand.

aight shutting my brain off.................... good night.

im just saying if you cbet with air, you need to barrel
and you can induce bluffs with a turncheck
and i think this is a great flop to cbet and barrel with 100% of your range

but im listening

i was irritated by nowayfolding's choose of words ("potroncroling"), if sth makes sense now

btw my 80s compilation is teh_bomb

I like your discussion. (=

But I don't understand all points fully. Duffte, do you mean you bet this turn 100% of the time after having c/b (checked behind) or c-betted?

I assume that we have no history concerning our c/b.

In the first case, I would put our perceived range on a lot of mediocre hands and almost never air, as it's very rarely balanced with air on these stakes. Villain knows this, as he is very solid. Because of that, he'll just call his better hands thinking he's ahead of my range and folding his worse hands thinking they're behind.

So, I would v-bet twice depending on what my hand is and how wide I think his range is for calling twice. Or I would barrel twice hoping to get him off his weaker hands.

In the case of that we c-betted the flop, our range is much wider. I would c-bet this flop with a lot of hands (not 100% because of 3-way-ness, though). A 2nd barrel will reduce my range to the top of my range but also draws (strong as OESD/FD as well as combinations; weak like OC + Gutshot).

Against that range, he could c/c again with TP and also with 2nd pairs, when he puts me on strong TPs (as I could c/b weakish ones) and draws (which he's ahead of).

So, I wouldn't bet this turn 100% of the time. It depends on reads. And without reads, I don't think that a TAG c/c this flop and c/f this turn, but against this specific good opponent, it may be a good idea. But I tend to give up because of the flop's 3-wayness.

I don't see 100% anywhere.