Apex93
155 posts
Joined 04/2010
Time Link to 00:13:13
I feel like in these spots where the BB is usually 3betting to get us out of the pot and getting it HU with the weaker player, we should be calling with our stronger hands (like we have in this spot) and be 4bet bluffing with hands that are not good enough to call. Or do you feel like AJo is not good enough to call and do you think that min 4bet is enough to make players fold that they are 3betting here, assuming he 3bets depolarized and/or makes "two way" 3bets?
Posted 10 months ago
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DjuNKeLL
135 posts
Joined 05/2009
Time Link to 00:07:37
I know it is about river situations, but is this particular hand not more of a turn situation? As you showed, villain does not 3-bet much vs EP open. Also, villain does not c-bet the flop with his entire range in 3-bet pots. The same applies OTT. So, his range OTT includes a lot of valuehands that either dominate us, or have decent equity. I agree the river is a fold though.
Can you please show the stack sizes in your next video?
Posted 10 months ago
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DjuNKeLL
135 posts
Joined 05/2009
Time Link to 00:18:02
I think this is a call as villain can have several missed draws. If I saw it correctly than villain has a 0% fold to 3b, which makes he can show up with all kind of stuff OTR. Also his aggression frequency is pretty high. In these spots I tend to check villain's river aggression frequency. Do you think that adds any value whether to decide to call or not? sample size is pretty small of course.
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DrGambol
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Joined 07/2012
Crackmonkey
599 posts
Joined 06/2009
I feel like in these spots where the BB is usually 3betting to get us out of the pot and getting it HU with the weaker player, we should be calling with our stronger hands (like we have in this spot) and be 4bet bluffing with hands that are not good enough to call. Or do you feel like AJo is not good enough to call and do you think that min 4bet is enough to make players fold that they are 3betting here, assuming he 3bets depolarized and/or makes "two way" 3bets?
What I was really wanting to accomplish with the 4 bet was to get heads up with BB and give him good enough pot odds to call OOP with a lot of inferior hands. I had the impression that he was squeezing pretty wide in this spot, so I was hoping to entice him to call with inferior Jx and Ax hands while OOP, which would put me in a very profitable situation.
I would certainly have made the 4 bet bigger if I had a hand like A5 or KT. I do expect that he would fold complete trash to a min 4 bet. I didn't want to call and most likely play the pot 3 ways, even with position, as I felt that a lot of the flops that could potentially be bad for the squeezer's range would be good for the SB's range, making it difficult for me to take the pot down on those types of wet, middle rank card flops.
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Crackmonkey
599 posts
Joined 06/2009
I know it is about river situations, but is this particular hand not more of a turn situation? As you showed, villain does not 3-bet much vs EP open. Also, villain does not c-bet the flop with his entire range in 3-bet pots. The same applies OTT. So, his range OTT includes a lot of valuehands that either dominate us, or have decent equity. I agree the river is a fold though.
Can you please show the stack sizes in your next video?
Yea I do believe the turn is most likely a fold, but it does illustrate a point that just because you may have made a mistake on the turn, doesn't mean you have to make another on the river. The river card doesn't really change much, but it's not one of those situations where you have to call the river if you're going to call the turn. We make a lot of mistakes in game and get to these types of rivers because we justified a turn call, then feel obligated to call the river because the river card doesn't seem to improve villain's range.
It's still important to take a look at everything that has happened in the hand and make the correct decision in the situation we find ourselves in, even if we're lamenting clicking call on the previous street. We're all going to make plenty of mistakes, but when we do make them, it's important not let them domino into two or three mistakes.
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Crackmonkey
599 posts
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I think this is a call as villain can have several missed draws. If I saw it correctly than villain has a 0% fold to 3b, which makes he can show up with all kind of stuff OTR. Also his aggression frequency is pretty high. In these spots I tend to check villain's river aggression frequency. Do you think that adds any value whether to decide to call or not? sample size is pretty small of course.
0% fold to 3bet definitely widens his preflop range. That, coupled with his rather high turn raise % and overall aggressive tendencies would lean me toward giving him more bluffs in his range on the river. I didn't check his river aggression, but that could be useful assuming we have enough hands on this particular player.
We didn't have a huge sample size on turn raise, but I think that is one of those stats that you don't need to have too many hands to get a feel for how someone plays. Your average 100-200NL player isn't raising the turn a whole lot unless they have a very strong hand/draw, and both are difficult to have. It's much easier to have a bluff. When you find someone that has already raised the turn 4 out of 9 times, it's much more likely that he's someone who likes to make plays on the turn, rather than just running really hot.
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Crackmonkey
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DjuNKeLL
135 posts
Joined 05/2009
0% fold to 3bet definitely widens his preflop range. That, coupled with his rather high turn raise % and overall aggressive tendencies would lean me toward giving him more bluffs in his range on the river. I didn't check his river aggression, but that could be useful assuming we have enough hands on this particular player.
We didn't have a huge sample size on turn raise, but I think that is one of those stats that you don't need to have too many hands to get a feel for how someone plays. Your average 100-200NL player isn't raising the turn a whole lot unless they have a very strong hand/draw, and both are difficult to have. It's much easier to have a bluff. When you find someone that has already raised the turn 4 out of 9 times, it's much more likely that he's someone who likes to make plays on the turn, rather than just running really hot.
I'm not really sure why you refer to his turn raise %. In the AJ hand you checked back the turn, so not really sure why you think that is a relevant stat in this situation? Or do you mean that you should have checked his turn raise % to decide if a b/c was a better play OTT?
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Crackmonkey
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I'm not really sure why you refer to his turn raise %. In the AJ hand you checked back the turn, so not really sure why you think that is a relevant stat in this situation? Or do you mean that you should have checked his turn raise % to decide if a b/c was a better play OTT?
Ugh my mistake. I was thinking of another hand that I didn't have time to get to in the video, also where I had AJ. In this spot, I think most players, especially ones that have fishy stats, aren't going to be able to value bet this river very well at all. I doubt a hand like KQ bets this way, so he's limited to a very small value range, and a lot of air/random weirdness.
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acecracker
22 posts
Joined 07/2012
Time Link to 00:23:25
Given that villain is obviously bad, can he not have QTor Q5 here? With a range of [55-44,QTs,Q5s-Q4s,QTo,Q5o-Q4o] our equity on the river is 64%. If we narrow villain's range to [55-44,QTs,Q5s-Q4s] our equity is at 44% which still makes this a call.
Again this argument is only true if QT and Q5 are in his range. Am I just not giving this fish enough credit?
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Crackmonkey
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Given that villain is obviously bad, can he not have QTor Q5 here? With a range of [55-44,QTs,Q5s-Q4s,QTo,Q5o-Q4o] our equity on the river is 64%. If we narrow villain's range to [55-44,QTs,Q5s-Q4s] our equity is at 44% which still makes this a call.
Again this argument is only true if QT and Q5 are in his range. Am I just not giving this fish enough credit?
Preflop he can have any combo of QT and probably Q5s and Q4s. I would throw out the offsuit combos. I think he can certainly be check/minraising any of those 2 pair combos on the turn, but the issue I have is on the river when the 4 comes. I think even a guy like this at least can understand that the 4 counterfeits Q5 and QT. I would expect him to size down his bets with those hands, and continue strong with boats. He may even check the 2 pair hands when the 4 comes.
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StackHunter
2643 posts
Joined 09/2010
8:40 - KTs
I am not sure about your call if you don't have any idea of how he constructs his 3-betting range. Vs 12% depolarized range you're not doing that well:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 36.720% 34.74% 01.98% 316470448 18024552.00 { KTs }
Hand 1: 63.280% 61.30% 01.98% 558426176 18024552.00 { TT+, ATs+, A5s-A2s, K9s+, QTs+, ATo+, KJo+ }
You are dominated by: KJ, KQ, AK; AT; TT+
I would probably 4b bluff pre without any further information. Don't just strictly look at the stats, look at the other things as well - he bombs 3/4 in 3-bet pot on a dry board. I'd flat flop and fold on the turn. On the river you are playing a guessing game if you don't know what his range might be.
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StackHunter
2643 posts
Joined 09/2010
13:30 - AJo
Sample size of 303 hands is meaningless. You were offered great pot odds IP, I'd simply flat to keep the pot small with a medium hand. CiB gives you nothing:
- he will most likely fold worse hands like A7o, which is a disaster
- he may turn some random trash into a bluff and you still can't call all-in, because AJo sucks in preflop all-ins
Postflop I'd also pot control our hand vs this opponent. He can have everything, he is a loose player. Check behind and try to get to the SD, you won't get more than 1 street of value out of pocket pairs anyway. I really dislike your reasoning to call the river, just because he is goofy. He may be goofy, but that doesn't mean he can't have a hand, he showed a really huge strength:
- call OOP to a small 4bet
- x/c OTF, which is likely to hit your range
And you expect him to bluff?
Sample size is too small, we have no info about him, so we just play our range.
Top - straight, sets, maybe top two
Mid - lower two pair, TPTK
Bot - the rest
You are at the bottom of your range, so you can just fold.
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