Small Stakes Shorthanded NL Poker Forums

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $1(BB) Replayer
SB ($100)
BB ($109)
UTG ($139)
UTG+1 ($239)
Hero ($106)
BTN ($101)

Dealt to Hero Q Q

fold, fold, Hero raises to $3, BTN calls $3, fold, fold

FLOP ($7.50) T 3 K

Hero bets $5, BTN calls $5

TURN ($17.50) T 3 K 5

Hero checks, BTN bets $12, Hero calls $12

RIVER ($41.50) T 3 K 5 8

Hero checks, BTN bets $32, Hero


villain is 26/20, 300 hands

fold to cbet 25%, raise cbet 20%

really uncertain in this hand here. im not even sure if I should cbet here, this is a board where he will fold a lot of pockets below TT, and theres a good amount of GSD/OESD/combos that he can raise here.

anyhow i went ahead and decided to let him float. he bets kinda big on the river, and I think he doesnt expect me to have a lot of hands worse than a K here. just fold it.

I don't really like your check(/call) on the turn. You just say "I give up but I beat your bluffs so let's see what you do on the river". This way you make it very easy for villain. I prefer to bet the turn myself and eventually bluffcatch on the river vs some players on a card like this. Now we go into bluffcatch mode with 1 possible big bet to follow.

@Adriano85 If you think that people always bomb 3 times when you check to them on the flop, why don't you check all your monsters as preflop raiser? It would be highest EV line as you'd always get 3 streets of value which won't happen when you cbet thrice.

@FatKing85
What Kx hands can he have after he called BUT vs CO? You block the most likely KQ. There are only 3 combos of KJs. AK mostly 3-bets pre, KTs just 2 combos.
At the same time he is left there on the flop with his whole ~15% flatting range. By betting 3 times he represents about 1.5% range. If you only look at his flush draws and AJ, AQ, QJ type hands you get more than 3% bluffing twice/likely thrice range. Note that we don't include showdown value type hands like Tx or pockpet pairs!
With the odds you get (you can accept being behind 70% of the time for the breakeven call ) and the fact that you induced bluffs by checking the flop, I think you cannot fold this river unless you know this villain well and that he's not capable of betting air thrice.
IMO, this is a quite standard check-call on the river.

@Adriano85 If you think that people always bomb 3 times when you check to them on the flop, why don't you check all your monsters as preflop raiser? It would be highest EV line as you'd always get 3 streets of value which won't happen when you cbet thrice.

Nothing in poker is "always". I didn't say we should check flop and I didn't say villain is always betting 3 streets when we check flop.

Betting turn makes the hand easier to play for myself. We charge draws which are very common on this type of boards. We still get value from draws on the turn but not often on the river when they miss.

Also, when villain has for example a set on the turn he will raise us and we lose let's say a bet of $13. What do we lose when we go into c/c mode on turn and river when villain has a set? we lose way more. (I know it's an extreme example because sets are hard to make but just to explain why it makes the hand easier and cheaper to play)

What happens when villain has KJ? He will call our turn bet and also check behind the river a fair amount of the time. When we check turn he might check behind and bet river when we check to him so with KJ it's not making a big difference $ wise.

JJ for example, villain will call on the turn but almost never bet. The 2 lines just do different things to parts of villains range. Since villain doesn't like to fold much I expect him to have more weaker then strong hands in his flop calling range and therefore I prefer to bet the turn to charge draws, get value from weaker and make the hand easier to play.

If my way of thinking is wrong please show me some examples. Would be happy to improve as every other player here.

Hey guys, sorry - I misread the hand: I thought Hero checked the flop.
As played on the flop, I think another cbet(-fold) is best on the turn, because we charge draws and get value from Tx type hands. Non Kx hands are much more likely than Kx.
As played on the turn, I'd probably still call the river, although after turn c/c it's much tougher decision now.

based this only on villain's stats. turn check should be higher EV than betting. Villain gets to the turn with a wide range with the 25% fold to cbet -> he has to bluff to win with this floats.

We will not miss value vs a marginal showdown hands since we can bet the river to get the 2 streets of value. Not like anybody is checking a decent draw on the turn so people don't give themselves free cards. Apparently pot equity = bet like a monkey regardless of villain's range these days. Only way we miss some value is villain may bet smaller with his draws compared to how much we would bet turn but difference should be minimal.

River is snap call given villain's turn range unless you got some specific reads. Wide turn betting range = wide range for getting to the river. Note this is range for getting to the river and not betting range on the river so with a specific read you can fold.

B, B, XC

IP you can check the turn.

Hey guys, sorry - I misread the hand: I thought Hero checked the flop.
As played on the flop, I think another cbet(-fold) is best on the turn, because we charge draws and get value from Tx type hands. Non Kx hands are much more likely than Kx.
As played on the turn, I'd probably still call the river, although after turn c/c it's much tougher decision now.

It might be semantics - but you cannot get value from a specific part of villain's range.

I think a turn c/c is standard, and I would probably call river against this specific villain although this type of spots are 100% player dependant since there are people that are bluffing river a very low frequency after you c/c turn.

B, B, XC

IP you can check the turn.

I'm interested in reasoning why you think B is higher EV than X/C on the turn in this particular hand, especially on this turn brick where our perceived betting range should be stronger.

I'm interested in reasoning why you think B is higher EV than X/C on the turn in this particular hand, especially on this turn brick where our perceived betting range should be stronger.

I think I explained that in the very first session we had I know it is a long time ago. A good understanding of position is what you need in order to realize why betting is better than check/calling

I think I explained that in the very first session we had I know it is a long time ago. A good understanding of position is what you need in order to realize why betting is better than check/calling

Jeeze. you can still remember what was said in our the first coaching session. It's actually about exactly 2 years to this day .

This is still true assuming villain gets to the turn with a very wide range of hands when we're OOP?

following

I'm interested in reasoning why you think B is higher EV than X/C on the turn in this particular hand, especially on this turn brick where our perceived betting range should be stronger.

Also very interested in this.

With such a fold to flop Cbet (granted, small sample size), I would think he's going to be raising this turn a good % of the time which would suck with our hand. With X/C OTT we don't have to worry about getting into this spot. However, I do think he's more likely to bluff river if we bet turn rather than if we X/C turn.

However, I do think he's more likely to bluff river if we bet turn rather than if we X/C turn.

I agree but I think the type of hands he could bluff river with (I'm thinking FDs and QJ) are very likely to do something other than call flop and turn; they may raise flop, ship turn or fold turn. If he's any good I don't see him just calling turn with a 9 high FD.

By checking turn we get value from floats and he gets to the river with a weaker range.