Small Stakes Shorthanded NL Poker Forums

Poker Stars $100 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 1804056
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UTG: $126.8 - VPIP: 18, PFR: 16, 3B: 8, AF: 1.3, Hands: 137
MP: $37.3 - VPIP: 24, PFR: 8, 3B: 0, AF: 1.0, Hands: 25
CO: $157.3 - VPIP: 27, PFR: 10, 3B: 10, AF: 3.0, Hands: 30
BTN: $199.6 - VPIP: 27, PFR: 23, 3B: 11, AF: 0.0, Hands: 30
SB: $38.1 - VPIP: 40, PFR: 13, 3B: 0, AF: 2.0, Hands: 15
Hero (BB): $131.6 - VPIP: 20, PFR: 15, 3B: 6, AF: 4.9, Hands: 3608

Pre Flop: ($1.5) Hero is BB with Q Q
UTG raises to $3, 1 fold, CO calls $3, 2 folds, Hero raises to $12, UTG calls $9, CO calls $9

Flop: ($36.5) 7 3 8 (3 players)
Hero bets $18, UTG calls $18, CO folds

Turn: ($72.5) 2 (2 players)

Hero?

Preflop
My plan was to 3b for value and fold to 4 a bet. Fold to 3b 60(5), 4 bet 20(5)

Flop
When Villian calls his range is something like:QhQs,JJ-TT,AcQc,AhQh,AsQs,AJs,KcQc,KhQh,KsQs. So I cbet half pot for value, getting value from: JJ and TT. Imo his cbet calling range is like: QhQs,JJ-TT,AdJd, which I have 85% equity against.


Turn
2c changes nothing, so I think I can ship here for value, even if he slowplays let's say half off AA (the ones with a diamond) is stille have 73% equity if called.

Thoughts?

Allermand_DK

Flop
When Villian calls his range is something like:QhQs,JJ-TT,AcQc,AhQh,AsQs,AJs,KcQc,KhQh,KsQs.

I don't understand why you give him this flop calling range. He has way more diamonds in his range then shades or hearts. Or is this where you put him on when he calls your PF sqeeuze?

So I cbet half pot for value, getting value from: JJ and TT. Imo his cbet calling range is like: QhQs,JJ-TT,AdJd, which I have 85% equity against.

Again, he has way more hands with diamonds in it like AdKx / AdQx / KdQx 99/TT/JJ etc.

Turn is easy ship because you don't want to give him any free card by checking.

I think it's something of an optimistic calculation not to include AA-KK, AK in his possible flatting range, if CO is a reg-fish and calls pre-flop to set mine vs the open raise and the squeeze there's a lot of dead money for AA-KK, AK to make by flatting afterall.

I think it's something of an optimistic calculation not to include AA-KK, AK in his possible flatting range, if CO is a reg-fish and calls pre-flop to set mine vs the open raise and the squeeze there's a lot of dead money for AA-KK, AK to make by flatting afterall.

So what du you think is the best play here?

I don't understand why you give him this flop calling range. He has way more diamonds in his range then shades or hearts. Or is this where you put him on when he calls your PF sqeeuze?

Yes..

I think it's something of an optimistic calculation not to include AA-KK, AK in his possible flatting range, if CO is a reg-fish and calls pre-flop to set mine vs the open raise and the squeeze there's a lot of dead money for AA-KK, AK to make by flatting afterall.

I think that 130bb deep and potentially 3way he is almost never gonna slowplay KK preflop, AA is more likely. He might also have AK, simply because its often not a great spot to get this in preflop in this spot for villain. In villains spots a 4bet/allin seems only good with KK+/AKs.

I don't always 3bet this preflop either, if you get 4bet you aren't gonna be good against most standard regs and its hard to imagine a ton of value coming from there UTG flatting range. So mostly all you did is turn QQ into a preflop semi-bluff. In which case I much prefer to play IP with a concealed hand or even repop vs a sqeeuze from the blinds.
That being said, I disagree with your flop sizing. Either set the stacks up here for a turn allin or bet small enough to triple barrel. Now you are stuck on the turn with 1.3-1.5x pot which is never good. So either bet like 30$ on the flop or just make it 10$.

As played a turn ship looks okay.

I think that 130bb deep and potentially 3way he is almost never gonna slowplay KK preflop, AA is more likely. He might also have AK, simply because its often not a great spot to get this in preflop in this spot for villain. In villains spots a 4bet/allin seems only good with KK+/AKs.

I don't always 3bet this preflop either, if you get 4bet you aren't gonna be good against most standard regs and its hard to imagine a ton of value coming from there UTG flatting range. So mostly all you did is turn QQ into a preflop semi-bluff. In which case I much prefer to play IP with a concealed hand or even repop vs a sqeeuze from the blinds.
That being said, I disagree with your flop sizing. Either set the stacks up here for a turn allin or bet small enough to triple barrel. Now you are stuck on the turn with 1.3-1.5x pot which is never good. So either bet like 30$ on the flop or just make it 10$.

As played a turn ship looks okay.

Makes a lot of sense.. thanks..

Which one would go with - 3br or bet bigger, if so how much on eash?

i know the standard is to bet 1/2 pot on the flop so you can bet bet shove, but i don't think there's anything wrong with betting bigger on this flop especially since it's 3 handed and you guys are deep. Also makes the turn shove easier.

I think the real challenge here would be if the turn was a diamond. Hard to justify shoving then. Maybe check call? meh

i know the standard is to bet 1/2 pot on the flop so you can bet bet shove, but i don't think there's anything wrong with betting bigger on this flop especially since it's 3 handed and you guys are deep. Also makes the turn shove easier.

I think the real challenge here would be if the turn was a diamond. Hard to justify shoving then. Maybe check call? meh

Well, as I see it It's still a jam on anydiamond turn lees than T: Board: 7d 3d 8d 2d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 18.750% 18.75% 00.00% 132 0.00 { QhQs, JJ-TT, AdJd, AdTd, KdJd, QdJd }
Hand 1: 81.250% 81.25% 00.00% 572 0.00 { QcQd }

and it's a check-fold on a diamond of A, because Villian will bet all his flushes and al most never blufff sets and lower flushes.

I think that 130bb deep and potentially 3way he is almost never gonna slowplay KK preflop, AA is more likely. He might also have AK, simply because its often not a great spot to get this in preflop in this spot for villain. In villains spots a 4bet/allin seems only good with KK+/AKs.

I don't always 3bet this preflop either, if you get 4bet you aren't gonna be good against most standard regs and its hard to imagine a ton of value coming from there UTG flatting range. So mostly all you did is turn QQ into a preflop semi-bluff. In which case I much prefer to play IP with a concealed hand or even repop vs a sqeeuze from the blinds.
That being said, I disagree with your flop sizing. Either set the stacks up here for a turn allin or bet small enough to triple barrel. Now you are stuck on the turn with 1.3-1.5x pot which is never good. So either bet like 30$ on the flop or just make it 10$.

As played a turn ship looks okay.

Not 3betting QQ here at 130bb in a squeeze situation is rather "nitty," unlike a cold 3bet the villain should be extremely suspsicious of your squeeze and either have a wider 4bet/call range or a non 0% 4bet bluff range even at SSNL. 30bb extra doesn't really change the stack off ranges and the pot geometry that much IMO.

I'm not certain your betting size on the flop in order to bet the pot on the turn is the best idea, when your opponent calls a 3bet OOP and we flop a monotone board, there's an extremely good chance he's going to check/raise an AdXx hand there. By betting half the pot, or less than half the pot, we can theoretically increase his check/calling range to KdXx or QdXx hands that can't really check/raise vs us effectively and then just overbet the turn to close the action.

I think it's a bit of a mistake to play NL in the same way you'd play PL by always betting large enough on earlier streets in order to PSB later streets for value, you can be more creative with your early street bet sizing where getting check/raised is a serious concern and just make up the value on a later street by overbetting. It's espeically good vs. those kinds of bad players who just can't fold a flush draw or small pair to a 2/5 turn bet and then they just think "derf, derf Overbets are Polarized and bluff heavy" and pay off your thin value overbet with like pocket 77 etc.

Anyway, my point is that we don't necessarily need to hang out any more dead money than necessary on the flop when we can overbet the turn with our range (even if it isn't relevant for QQ)

As far as what I would do, I think I'd ship the turn and feel alright about it.

As far as "never slow playing" AA, KK, AK there, I really disagree, totalitarian statements like he always 4bets KK+ or he always check/raises sets on the flop just lead you to making equity calcuations that are always in your favor when those hands could very much be in his range. You also need to think about things like game flow and perceived range here, if neither player has any 3bet history do you really think he's ever going to 5bet bluff you or he's never going to barrel 3 streets post flop as a bluff? 4betting only really sets up the standard cooler scenario for both players, I'm guessing shipping AK, QQ+ back and forth to the rake, maybe getting him to 4bet bluff or pay off with JJ if the dynamic is right. I think it's smarter to play against the bottom of the opponent's range and let the set miner spew his chips off here than it is to feed the rake.

Edit: Sorry, by check/raise I meant raise.

As far as "never slow playing" AA, KK, AK there, I really disagree, totalitarian statements like he always 4bets KK+ or he always check/raises sets on the flop just lead you to making equity calcuations that are always in your favor when those hands could very much be in his range. You also need to think about things like game flow and perceived range here, if neither player has any 3bet history do you really think he's ever going to 5bet bluff you or he's never going to barrel 3 streets post flop as a bluff? 4betting only really sets up the standard cooler scenario for both players, I'm guessing shipping AK, QQ+ back and forth to the rake, maybe getting him to 4bet bluff or pay off with JJ if the dynamic is right. I think it's smarter to play against the bottom of the opponent's range and let the set miner spew his chips off here than it is to feed the rake.

Edit: Sorry, by check/raise I meant raise.

Its extremely hard to make generalizing statements about preflop spots like this anyway. Thats also why I said almost always and not just always. I just think that it makes more sense for him to slowplay AA then KK in spots like this so thats why I mentioned that. I agree that in a spot with no history or dynamics there are often smarter ways to play KK/AA IP, this is something people to often forget or simply refuse to do in the interest of remaining balanced.

About the betsizing, I was commenting on the fact that choosing one or the other sets up stacks better. Its my point of view that if we have a value hand and are in a position to take someone's stack, we should choose a betsizing that tends to avoid overbets. Since we like to remain balanced in our betsizing we should essentially do the same here. So there are 2 options, either flop big and turn big, or 3x smallish.

I tend to agree that on this board we should bet smallish, with this exact hand it might be less optimal. If you look at our range it mostly consists of A-high FD or overpairs. So to me it makes alot of sense to try and sqeeuze out some extra value of his lower FD's and/or pairs, hands that might not commit to a double strong bet.

Its abit of a tradeoff tho, I can be persuaded to betting big cause it allows us to maximize our fold equity with the draws that still make up a big part of our range. Especially if we throw in some bluffs with Ax in there.

Its extremely hard to make generalizing statements about preflop spots like this anyway. Thats also why I said almost always and not just always. I just think that it makes more sense for him to slowplay AA then KK in spots like this so thats why I mentioned that. I agree that in a spot with no history or dynamics there are often smarter ways to play KK/AA IP, this is something people to often forget or simply refuse to do in the interest of remaining balanced.

About the betsizing, I was commenting on the fact that choosing one or the other sets up stacks better. Its my point of view that if we have a value hand and are in a position to take someone's stack, we should choose a betsizing that tends to avoid overbets. Since we like to remain balanced in our betsizing we should essentially do the same here. So there are 2 options, either flop big and turn big, or 3x smallish.

I tend to agree that on this board we should bet smallish, with this exact hand it might be less optimal. If you look at our range it mostly consists of A-high FD or overpairs. So to me it makes alot of sense to try and sqeeuze out some extra value of his lower FD's and/or pairs, hands that might not commit to a double strong bet.

Its abit of a tradeoff tho, I can be persuaded to betting big cause it allows us to maximize our fold equity with the draws that still make up a big part of our range. Especially if we throw in some bluffs with Ax in there.

So which betsize do you prefer OTF, pot? and why.. Thanks..

A) Folding to a 4bet is okay if your image is nitty.

B) Your estimate of villain's calling range looks off - Villain has position and there you are more than 125bbs deep. I'm pretty sure 77 is not folding pre. And they are also slowplaying the flop.

C) 2 does change something. It changes the equity for a lot of hands. And it also changes the range that villain can see you betting on the turn.

A) Folding to a 4bet is okay if your image is nitty.

B) Your estimate of villain's calling range looks off - Villain has position and there you are more than 125bbs deep. I'm pretty sure 77 is not folding pre. And they are also slowplaying the flop.

C) 2 does change something. It changes the equity for a lot of hands. And it also changes the range that villain can see you betting on the turn.

(A) Ok..

(B) I was aware of that, but I wanted to make Villians range strong to not overestimate my overpair+3dr nutFD, if that makes sense?

(C) Can you give a concrete example please?

Thanks..

Poker is all about equity. The equity of the different hands in yours and villain's range are different on the turn than they were on the flop. The hand is now two handed and not 3 handed. UTG called knowing that CO was still left to act. So in reality everything relevant for the hand has changed.

You are likely thinking something like: If I had the best hand on the flop then I still have the best hand on the turn. That is not how things work. Villain has a range of hands (and from villain's perspective you have a range of hands) and you each have a certain amount of equity vs the other player's range.

A similar mistake people often make is saying somehting like: I can get value from ... and then they list a specific range of hands... What they should do is list all the hands that will call and explain how they expect that range to play on later streets (if there are any).