Small Stakes Shorthanded NL Poker Forums

Posting this for a video. I think it'll help make it more effective and interesting if I have an idea of how some presumably winning regs handle this situation. I'll post a link to the vid when it's up.

This was played at 200NL on FTP but please tell me how you'd respond at your limit, and what that limit is (not that it really matters, but context helps sometimes). Please bear with the text as I didn't play the hand and don't have the raw hh, plus I'm changing it slightly to make it a bit simpler.

I want to know what the best made hand you'd fold is. I'd prefer minimal reasoning so as not to influence others.

Preflop: You open in MP with XX. Both blinds call. $200 (100bb) eff. stack.
Flop (A 8 6): You c-bet in position and both blinds call.
Turn (A 8 6 4): You bet again in position 3-way, SB folds, BB c/r all-in.

BB is an average winning reg at your limits, 21/17 preflop, 6-7% 3-bet, 50% fold to c-bet. Neither a nit nor a spewmonkey postflop. I don't think other stats are particularly meaningful or helpful.

You're getting 2.5-1. I'm interested in the best made hand you'd fold.

Side question: does your calling range change if it's the SB who c/r instead of the BB?

I think I'd call with top two and better, fold everything else, reluctantly. I play mainly 50nl.

What is our image to the reg? If it is unknown...


NL100 and below I'd fold 2p hands...

NL200+ I'd be hard pressed to fold any made hand. That turn is great to make a move on as a bluff/semi bluff. Our perceived range is strong and if he had any big hand, I'm sure he'd flat turn and try to let us value town ourselves on the river most times.

If it was the SB blind I'm prob folding 2p and below since seems pretty damn strong to me.

also depends a lot on what a player SB is, any reads on him?

also depends a lot on what a player SB is, any reads on him?

True, something I should have mentioned. Assume relatively unknown TAG type, and not a fish.

What is our image to the reg? If it is unknown...

yeah assume basically TAG unknown with no specific reads.

easy fold without at least a set of 66. Assuming 200NL and the guy isn't a fish he should be able to hand read. You rep no bluffs when firing twice into 2 players and he c/r all in so he can 100% beat all your 1 pair hands. BB should not have 44 in his range because bluff catching range should be tigher multiway especially when SB already called the flop. If villain expects another reg's calling range to be 2 pair + then to get value he should not be shoving worse than 66.

We should not be betting this spot with most of our TP hands unless one of them is a fish because when you rep no bluffs and people probably not calling your turn bet light.

oops it's like 2.2-1 to call it off, not 2.5-1. need 31% equity.

really sick spot.
I don't expect villain to ever have AA, cause he'd squeeze basically 100% of the time pre, also I don't expect to see 44 here like ever after the flop action.
88 and 66 are very reasonable to be in his range and slowplay the flop, now that the board gets drawheavier and SB is out of the hand he just c/ships the turn because you might cbehind on a not so good river.
75s might also be in his range for overcalling sometimes, and he'd play it like this a lot.

but we can't forget hands like 79dd,89dd,T8dd or T9dd that he might c/ship the turn now some of the time.
depending on how often you expect him to have those it becomes a call with AKdd,AQdd and A8dd (I'd actually check behind with AJdd there a lot).
if he c/ships 3 combo draws, we have to make this call:


Board: Ac 8h 6d 4d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 34.266% 34.27% 00.00% 392 0.00 { AdKd, AdQd }
Hand 1: 65.734% 65.73% 00.00% 752 0.00 { 88, 66, Td8d, 9d8d, 9d7d, 75s }

(the times he doesn't c/ship them is prolly weighted by the times he folds 75s pre, slowplays a set again on the turn or fastplays a set on the flop)

actually our AKdd,AQdd and A8dd have better equity than 66 if that range is correct

so my calling range would be AKdd, AQdd, A8dd, 66, 88 and obv AA, making the worst hand AQdd (although its basically the same with A8dd and AKdd vs that range).

You rep no bluffs when firing twice into 2 players and he c/r all in so he can 100% beat all your 1 pair hands.

Villain never does this with hands like 87dd//9Tdd/97s/etc? If it were SB these type of holdings would be less likely

We should not be betting this spot with most of our TP hands unless one of them is a fish because when you rep no bluffs and people probably not calling your turn bet light.

I think this makes sense

oh, I forgot to answer the question ^^
the best hand I would be folding is A8 (without diamonds).
I don't think that changes between SB and BB, although I expect SB to call more often with nutted hands than BB, but we're still not good enough with A8.
But it makes me happier stacking off with the range I posted before ^^

you should be checking AK and AQ of diamonds here most of the time. You don't get 3 streets of value with those in a multiway pot with 2 other regs and you're happy calling a river lead and you're not too worry about being sucked out on.

We call with 66 and not A8 because when we have 66 he can't have that hand which makes his range is more weighted towards strong draws combo wise and we have much more equity with set vs a straight or draw.

Definitely not happy calling with pocket 4s or less. Not to say I wouldn't call in the heat of the moment but I think 44 is probably a fold. Combo draws that he might shove are only a scant few combos which are discounted a little first preflop, then on the turn as your line reps so much strength that he can't expect to have too much fold equity. If he can hand read and is decent he's surely not shipping A8 for value here and probably doesn't have 44 after the flop play. So his made hand range is like 66+ and his combo draws are few and far between.

We call with 66 and not A8 because when we have 66 he can't have that hand which makes his range is more weighted towards strong draws combo wise and we have much more equity with set vs a straight or draw.

That may be true but I'm not sure Villain at NL200+ would take such a transparent value line against a tight aggressive player.

you mentioned:

You rep no bluffs when firing twice into 2 players

and I believe this to be true as would this villian. That said, I think villain waits until the river to make a move with his value range. Villain can expect you to pretty much bet for value just about all rivers since betting two streets into a multiway is has such perceived strength it would be uncommon to not see hero go for value on river. Villian can then check/ship with monsters... or villain could even donk out on certain rivers and expect a call based on knowing hero has solid hand and the STP ratio being less than 1:1 if he flatted turn.

I think the majority of the time he is taking this check/ship line on the turn on this board as a bluff/semibluff since it has a high level of perceived strength and he may have just built up equity by a straight draw, flush draw, or straight flush draw that might not think would get paid if it hits on the river.

That is why I'm calling with any made hand... I think it more likely he isn't taking a transparent value line and actually playing this as a bluff/semibluff much more often and often enough to be called profitably. It will also give me valuable insight as to whether villain is playing transparently or is capable of utilizing perceived strength as a bluff.

bump for night time crowd?