Small Stakes Shorthanded NL Poker Forums

12/12 over 12hands, so nothing really.

What range do you put him on donking the flop here? Would you consider raising here?

Full Tilt Poker $200.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 584583
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

CO: $197.00
Hero (BTN): $200.00
SB: $218.20
BB: $451.20
UTG: $248.85
MP: $203.00

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is BTN with A K
2 folds, CO raises to $6, Hero raises to $18, 2 folds, CO calls $12

Flop: ($39.00) J T 5 (2 players)
CO bets $22.00

I think he donks with a pair of Js, AJ, suited KJ/QJ, some middle pairs, and air. You don't know if he can fold a hand or how good a hand he can fold though, so it's hard to fgure fold equity with a raise.

I think you can peel one and see if he shuts down on turn. Then - depending on the turn you can either bomb or taking the freecard.

this could literally be any 2 cards with no reads. I would float the flop b/c you have nut no pair and a gutter to the yiminies and he didn't really bomb it or anything.

if he bets the turn def folding w/o improving. if he checks the turn it's pretty close between a bet or a check. I doubt I would ever really "bomb" though tack.

this could literally be any 2 cards with no reads. I would float the flop b/c you have nut no pair and a gutter to the yiminies and he didn't really bomb it or anything.

if he bets the turn def folding w/o improving. if he checks the turn it's pretty close between a bet or a check. I doubt I would ever really "bomb" though tack.

What turns are you looking to bet and what are you checking back? If you elect to bet, how big?

What turns are you looking to bet and what are you checking back? If you elect to bet, how big?

I'm probably betting every turn he checks, and probably half pot-ish, whatever sets up a river jam if I want it.

I'm probably betting every turn he checks, and probably half pot-ish, whatever sets up a river jam if I want it.

I think betting the turn exposes you to getting c/r and don't think he will fold any good pair. I'll check it, we have showdownvalue and we have plenty outs to improve, so i just want to go to showdown.

i call flop and probably fold turn unimproved

I think betting the turn exposes you to getting c/r and don't think he will fold any good pair. I'll check it, we have showdownvalue and we have plenty outs to improve, so i just want to go to showdown.

i call flop and probably fold turn unimproved

every single turn you ever bet in your entire poker career exposes you to a c/r, though I'm sure you bet a lot of turns you may be overestimating how often we'll be c/r'd. and if we do get c/r'd, we can safely fold knowing we're probably not being bluffed too much.

also, I don't think any good pair takes a donk flop and check/X line too often in a 3b pot. it's possible but somewhat unlikely. betting the turn gives you flexibility on the river to do whatever you want, and you can pick up the pot right there if he's c/folding and there's a good chance he is.

The decision between betting and checking in this spot depends imo on 1) do we have showdown value? and 2) how likely will we have the best hand on the river?

1) yes we have showdown value, i'd say we probably have the best hand when he checks. You say you always have a chance to get c/r when you bet. You're right, i just dont want to get to c/r when i have marginal showdown value (though likely the best hand). Why would you want to make the pot bigger?

2) It is very likely we will have the best hand on the river if we check, since our hand isnt that vulnerable vs his donkbetting range that we are probably ahead of anyway + if we are behind we have enough outs to improve, so giving us a cheap way to have the best hand at showdown.

The decision between betting and checking in this spot depends imo on 1) do we have showdown value? and 2) how likely will we have the best hand on the river?

1) yes we have showdown value, i'd say we probably have the best hand when he checks. You say you always have a chance to get c/r when you bet. You're right, i just dont want to get to c/r when i have marginal showdown value (though likely the best hand). Why would you want to make the pot bigger?

2) It is very likely we will have the best hand on the river if we check, since our hand isnt that vulnerable vs his donkbetting range that we are probably ahead of anyway + if we are behind we have enough outs to improve, so giving us a cheap way to have the best hand at showdown.

1. if you have no read on the opponent and no earthly idea what his donking range is in this spot, how can you evaluate your showdown value? because you have nut no pair? and making the pot bigger really has nothing to do with the overall of the situation. like if I'm bluffing on the turn and considering bluffing some rivers, the pot size only matters because I want to set up a river jam that has some fold equity if I decide to take that route.

2. the problem with thinking your hand isn't that vulnerable is two fold. first of course that you have no idea what his donking range is, and again no idea what his donking range that checks the turn is, so all things being equal, if a donk bet and then a check can be weak more often than strong, which I think is an alright generalization, betting is by far better, specifically because of the right of initiative. if you check back to realize your gutshot and maybe showdown what you perceive to be the best hand, you may lose if the river goes check/check unimproved, he may have donked out with a pair of 7's to find out where he was at, he may have Tx, though unlikely still possible, more importantly, he may see your turn check as weakness and decide to bluff the river with initiative, so you can get pwned a lot guessing and hero calling.

prefer to bet the turn with no other information.

your argument of no information/no reads makes it even more a check than a bet. I can turn that argument around as well, if you don't know what his donkbet range is, how do you know what his checking range is?

If you say his range is weak with this line, then why would you bet? We want people to fold weak ranges now (when we are likely to have the best hand)?

The "right of initiative" isnt even important in this spot. If you really wanted the initiative then you shouldnt have called the flop.

Why are you so afraid of being bluffed on the river. If you think he is bluffing, click call.

Donks = air in single raise pots the majority of time from bad players.

Have no idea what it means in 3bet pots and we dont really know if he is bad.

IF people do think his range is air/Jx how much of its air?
because I can see calling having reverse implied odds...

your argument of no information/no reads makes it even more a check than a bet. I can turn that argument around as well, if you don't know what his donkbet range is, how do you know what his checking range is?

If you say his range is weak with this line, then why would you bet? We want people to fold weak ranges now (when we are likely to have the best hand)?

The "right of initiative" isnt even important in this spot. If you really wanted the initiative then you shouldnt have called the flop.

Why are you so afraid of being bluffed on the river. If you think he is bluffing, click call.

it's not that I know what his exact checking range is, it's that when people check the turn after betting the flop they are more frequently giving up rather than c/r'ing. this comes from experience.

you need more definition when you talk about "weak range". and yes we would like them to fold "weak ranges" now when we are likely to have the best hand because that's not as important as taking the money in the pot down on the turn when someone checks and is probably check/folding way more often than c/r'ing. bet the turn

of course the right of initiative is important in this spot. your logic of not calling the flop if we want initiative is very flawed. the reason why we call the flop is because we have a reasonable hand getting a reasonable price vs. an unknown range and we have position so we get to see what happens on the turn, which we'll probably be folding if he bets again and we didn't improve.

lol I'm not afraid of being bluffed on the river, I'm just saying if you are always checking back on the turn because you fear a c/r but you don't fear a bluff on the river and plan on putting your cape on and hero'ing it up, be prepared to be wrong a lot

bet the turn if he checks

Ok so looks like we disagree and i dont think i can convince you I think you are applying the wrong concepts in this situation. I also think you are twisting some of my words, for example with calling the flop. In my first post i said i would call flop. I was just pointing out that your reasoning of initiative is a bit flawed.

My arguments are quite clear in my previous posts, just want to add something. Another advantage of taking it to showdown is that we can see what he is donkbetting with on this flop for that betsize. Also you seem not to consider we can still bluff/bluffcatch/valuebet on certain rivercards.

Also, 2 final questions. There are basically two reasons for betting: value and bluff. So are you valuebetting or bluffing fender? You also say you are probably betting every turn half pot ish. Ofcourse A, K, Q, we bet for value. Do you bet 7, 8 or a 9, which helps his donkbetting range? What about a pairing turncard, which lowers the possible combo's we can have?

Ok so looks like we disagree and i dont think i can convince you I think you are applying the wrong concepts in this situation. I also think you are twisting some of my words, for example with calling the flop. In my first post i said i would call flop. I was just pointing out that your reasoning of initiative is a bit flawed.

My arguments are quite clear in my previous posts, just want to add something. Another advantage of taking it to showdown is that we can see what he is donkbetting with on this flop for that betsize. Also you seem not to consider we can still bluff/bluffcatch/valuebet on certain rivercards.

Also, 2 final questions. There are basically two reasons for betting: value and bluff. So are you valuebetting or bluffing fender? You also say you are probably betting every turn half pot ish. Ofcourse A, K, Q, we bet for value. Do you bet 7, 8 or a 9, which helps his donkbetting range? What about a pairing turncard, which lowers the possible combo's we can have?

I've stated how I feel about this spot very clearly, so I'll leave it at that.

as for your final 2 questions....

1. I don't have to JUST be value betting or bluffing and neither do you.

2. we don't really know what cards improve or weaken his donk betting range since we are working with zero info no reads no stats. all we have is the fact that he donked a flop in a 3b pot, and checked a turn (which in the OG hand we don't even know is true yet haha) and generally someone who had a strong had would be betting more than checking, and check/folding more than check/raising. so although I agree there is merit to checking the turn and pokering on the river, I much prefer a bet on the turn for reasons stated, and I'm probably betting every turn I don't improve on, but may consider checking back sometimes when we improve since I do expect him to be c/folding more than c/raising or c/calling as stated. if the turn card pairs I'm happy betting as well, we again don't even know if he's thinking about our cards in any shape or form, let alone the fact that a paired turn makes our value range less likely.