Secret HQ Poker Forums

Isac, he raised from the CO... this is only pairs?

I might raise pf.

I'm good at soul reading. And this player for 200 hands was 24/4 - All the times I saw him raise preflop it was a +TT pair or +AQs.

And IMO a read is a read untill another read is registered

Also it's not like I'm loosing money at my sessions overall. But for all sessions this week 1 table have been -15BB atleast :S

Last night's session was only hysterical because I wasn't there

Well not in voice anyway......

Some good stuff though although I think the monteiko hands was simpler than we were making it.

Also for Adri's sake I promise to use the 4-colour decks which actually does look like cards (rather than the simplieifed decks) becase, believe it or not, I have heard of 4-colour decks live.

And in conclusion FML for this week probably a good job I've been unable to play poker I'm on such life tilt atm.

Oh and BG that's only 112 posts for this month you've grunched...we must be close to 500 posts now as a group surely? Anyone know?

Do y'all ever take the just-call flop OOP, donk the Turn, line? I've been working on this in a few different scenarios and like it. Granted, I'm not yet playing against stellar opposition.

I really, really hate raising the flop here for a lot of reasons.

Full Tilt Poker $0.50/$1 Limit Hold'em - 5 players - View hand 72531
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

Pre Flop: (1.5 SB) Hero is BB with 4 J
UTG raises, 3 folds, Hero calls

Flop: (4.5 SB) 7 7 J (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, Hero calls

Turn: (3.25 BB) 7 (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls

River: (5.25 BB) 8 (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls

Final Pot: 7.25 BB
Hero shows 4 J (a full house, Sevens full of Jacks)
UTG mucks Q A
Hero wins 6.9 BB
(Rake: $0.35)

To be honest I'm not a fan of check-call/Lead as a line since if you're doing it for value you often miss a bet (small) especailly on a board like this since NOTHING is folding that'll call a turn donk anyway and as a bluff it's just not convincing enough because it's not a usual value-line.

If I'm Check Calling this flop it's because I want to Check-Raise the turn. His range is so massively A-High heavy here I think a raise has to go in somewhere.

On the flop you're about 57% favourite vs his range assuming standard TAG and on the turn you're almost 70%.

Also if you do Check-raise the flop it gives him a chace to spew with TT or some such hand.

Just one note I think the call pre-flop vs a UTG range is pretty thin. You're almost completely dominated by his range.

Vs a slightly looser "The Price is Right" range (ATo+, A8s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs+, KJo+, QJo+, 77+) you're a 69/31 dog which means you don't have odds to call pre-flop. Tbh I'd need J8s minimum and probably J9s to defend here if the opponent is even slightly positionally aware or OK postflop.

[disclaimer, it's not an UTG openraise but HJ)
As Boomer I'm absolutely not a fan of the xc-lead line and prefers a flop check-raise, special on this board with the multidraws.
The reasons: As Boomer said, you likely miss 1SB on the flop (but that heavily depends on how he is responding on the turn to your bet).

The turn in this case is a good card for a DONK because he doesn't fold Ax or KQ here - but almost anyother turn card it would be a bad play because the villain has the opportunity to raise with his PP's and Jx hands and fold his few trash hands. Whereas if you check-call he will most likely fire his 2nd barrel, special as an UTG openraiser, then you could check-raise the turn - not that great because he will def. fear the Jx or 7x and fold a lot if he doesn't beat it so there's no real value in it - or you can check-call turn and DONK any none A river.

So vs a standard Taggish HJ guy I def. prefer to check-raise the flop but it's pretty close with check-call check-call DONK. Becasue he'll have a serious tough time raising your river donk with any none 7x or JJ, but he'll call your donk very wide (special when the FD missed) with alot of hands that he wound't 3rd barrell and would fold on the river.

Preflop I'm not a fan of calling here, as Boomer wrote, your not good vs his range.

[disclaimer, it's not an UTG openraise but HJ)

Whoops

Still vs a standard HJ Raise (About top 23%)you're still no better than 66/34 and with the high rake in these games I'd still err on the side of folding.

Here you can credibly "represent" plenty of non-top pair hands. 89, 9T, Any PP, T8, Hearts and even some air are in range for check-raising this flop so I like getting the value in vs A-high and overcard hands (of which he'll have a lot).

As for c/c c/c donk (b/f)...I don't really like it vs a thinking player as everyone familiar with poker strategy knows what that line means by now especailly on a brick river.

heh, pity I haven't kept my lifetime statistics or it'd be quite fun to see the whole graph but I have managed to piece my 0.5/1 recent activity (last 20k hands) together, so since I haven't posted a graph for y'all to look at yet in 3 months....

2.3BB/100 the hard way

lol @ 10k sample sizes....in fact lol at 20k ones but it's all I could scrape together plus going back further my game's changed so much it'd be irrelevent, in fact the amount it's changed since the beginnin gof thi ssample is mind-boggling enough

I sooo need to get more hands in, I'm gonna try and add another table this w/e

As for c/c c/c donk (b/f)...I don't really like it vs a thinking player as everyone familiar with poker strategy knows what that line means by now especailly on a brick river.

This is interesting IMO, special on this board of 7 7 J 7 8 .

Is the 8 really a brick vs xc xc line
Will everyone give a gues on what a check-call check-call DONK means on this river ? please And how would you play it vs it with AA,AK,TT ?
Vs what a check-raise bet bet line on this board means, and how you would play your 23% range vs that ?

I like quizes, but got no clue what's the best line

No 8 isn't a brick river, I was speaking kind of hypotetically going from the turn bet. If the river's the 2 then what are you represetning with a c/c, c/c, donk? You're representign excatly what you have.

With the 3 hand's you're suggesting I'd raise AA, Hate life and call with TT, although raising might not be bad there either since you only lose to a J really which should have been more aggro and maybe even fold AK. Thinking about it this may be the best line to get extra out of TT-99 if you do have a J but it's SUCH a small part of their range. You're relying on a hell of a parlay to be good there with AK (i.e. opponent would c/c, c/c, donk with an unimproved FD rather than raise it anywhere where he's got equity coming our of his pores on the flop and that he now has no pair OR he's taken a weird as shit line with AQ and is now betting for perceived value).

C/R bet line from me on this board vs a HJ range could mean a few things, usually that it's more-than likely correct to fold A-high (certainly a bad one) on this river (not that anyone ever does mind you).

No 8 isn't a brick river, I was speaking kind of hypotetically going from the turn bet. If the river's the 2 then what are you represetning with a c/c, c/c, donk? You're representign excatly what you have.

haha, I'm not sure I agree - always - but very often though. Maybe I'm, well probably I am, affected by the extreme loose flop+turn calls I see, and I'm not only talking bout BG here, also like a general line vs a semi unknow tag-lagtard .5/1 player.

I did just try to run a super heavy PokerAzor analyzis (fucking bored on work atm) but as always I made a small error and PA crashes :S did take some screenshots though.

flop
turn
river

pretty sick that I did that fucking error on HJ's range on the turn. But will try one more - just not as complex maybe

2.3BB/100 the hard way

We is this seriously in 1 run? first 15K hands at 4.9 BB/100 - that's sick.

What about when you moved up ?

That's all 0.5/1

I moved up around about 500BB into the first upswing (~ Hand 11k). Lost 150BB immeditaely at 1/2 which hurt like hell fortunately got about 1/2 of it back immediately becasue a bonus cleared. After that broke even at 1/2 and mixed in 0.5/1 for a bit while grinding RB mainly and then the Ipoker run begins at about hand 15k after a cashout which resulted in that "Whoops" part of the graph and the upturn pretyt much co-incides with coming back to Stars.

One slight brag-worthy bit is that filtering for 5-6 handed I have an overall winrate of 3.6BB/100 over 20k hands . Either I REALLY suck shorthanded, or the rake is unbeatable, or I have a ridiculously small sample size...take your pick

Pre Flop: (1.5 SB) Hero is BB with 4 J
UTG raises, 3 folds, Hero calls

Flop: (4.5 SB) 7 7 J (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, Hero calls

Turn: (3.25 BB) 7 (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls

River: (5.25 BB) 8 (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls

Awesome analysis guys. Love it.

Firstly, I completely agree about preflop. As soon as I clicked "call" I didn't like it, but this guy was super straightforward, so the sooted Jack must have been too pretty to pass up.

[Oh, and I don't believe in coincidence. The reason I played this hand is so I could post it here. ]

Here's the main reason I've been playing with the c/c, donk Turn line on certain boards: villain plays badly against it. Honestly, on paired boards, especially, is where I've been testing.

Here are my "arguments" for why I've been playing around with it. I have tried playing this straightforwardly, raising the Flop or waiting and raising the Turn. I find that, MOST OF THE TIME, almost all villains play extremely well against it on this board when I'm OOP. ie, they fold when they should fold or raise me with a better hand after I've bloated the pot and hate folding, especially since it IS a paired board that contains a LOT of draws.

Lots of Turn cards scare me into not-raising.

Raising anywhere, as opposed to just calling or donking, opens my throat to a 3-ball. Again, on this turn, for instance, I can never know what his hand is (tons of draws, again) so can really never fold. Is he going to reraise me with TT if I raise somewhere? What about QQ? What about 89/9T/T8, hearts, 2 overs, etc, etc, etc.

I have provoked a lot of BAAAD turn raises verse my donk. Once they raise the turn, either with AK, QQ, air (donk on this board??? I RAISE!!!), or a legitimate draw, they almost always fire the river bet regardless. I have found that my money is going in much better (verse calling down a turn 3-bet, for example).

Never allows a free card or free SD to A-high or worse hand, which is never, ever, chever folding after I donk and bet the river. K-high reeeally wants to call down. So does Q-high sometimes. Think about how often these hands are within his range here.

Hate donk/folding this river/board.

We are all awesome post flop players and DC members, and STILL you guys are having a really hard time figuring out what to do against my donk.

I can very easily balance this play. I am only doing it on this type of board. It's a super cheap bluff/semi-bluff (think about if I have the 89/9T/8T, hearts, air). If villain is tight and straightforward, usually fearing me by this point, my Turn bluff is 3:1 and then river bluff 5:1. Think about how often this needs to work (when I'm balancing).

Session-meta. I loooooooove session-meta and believe this to be one of my strengths. This is one way I get people to SPEW on me. If I DO decide to bluff here, in this way, I get yelled at, called a horrendous donkey, nobody's ever folding there, blah blah blah. CHA-CHING!!! Time to get PAID! Begin spew-fest 2009 from the whole table against me.

I love LHE.

I like quizes, but got no clue what's the best line

Isac, on that one quiz hand, I donked out and they both folded. My instinct on that K34 board (I was in the BB with 65) was that they would play straightforwardly. I was getting an awesome 6:1 price on the flop donk and had good equity. I didn't want the LP SB to force me to 3-brl. Again, bad opposition. Good players would do much better verse it. Bad players call too much, so I wanted to take down the 3-way raised pot right away if possible because of my relative position, trapping the 'decent' BTN on the flop (he basically HAS to play fit or fold, knowing he can get sandwiched) in this 'protected pot.' He can never just-peel with 2 overs on this board.

If I was HU by the Turn against the LP, it's a much easier hand to play in position against the fish. I can fire again, take a free card, whatever I want.

Standard is to c/r, try and win a bigger pot on the turn/river or spike my straight, but the board was such K-low-low rainbow, that my donk was getting an awesome price. Great session-meta too.

Your reasoning isn't bad for the line but what I would say is that not raising because you're scared of getting 3-bet is not a valid reason for not rasing a hand as strong as top pair.

Aggressive players will 3-bet any number of combo draws against you on this flop, some even with pocket pairs below a J and that allows to to get more money in when good as who the hell ever believes you've flopped top pair or trips here? A-high and lower pairs call you down all day on a board like this if you check-raise the flop and even K-high does if the opponent is showdown bound. Combine that with the potential of being 3-bet by a "worse" hand then I think check-raising just has that much more merit.

I agree on the turn as a turn check raise here pretty much turns your hand over, or at least polarizes your range, and now 0.5/1 players are very unlikely to call down with A-High and getting 3-bet just sucks becasue you're almost always beat but can't let go.

It may be just a choice, personally I'll check-raise a lot of the hands you're mentioning (98,9T,T8, hearts etc) because it's possible play in such a way as to make an A-high calldown unprofitable.

And if you think donk-bluffing those makes people spew, wait until you Check-raise 98s on a K72r board, fire 3 barrels, hit an 8 on the river and beat A7o You've made an enemy for life there

You are definitely correct on another thing though...

People SUCK at playing against donk bets