Secret HQ Poker Forums

Your reasoning isn't bad for the line but what I would say is that not raising because you're scared of getting 3-bet is not a valid reason for not rasing a hand as strong as top pair.

I have been thinking about this and understand what you are saying, but I kinda disagree. If I'm boating the pot and can never fold, I really don't like it. Yes, I'm giving up a little on the flop on this one hand (very small fraction of a small bet) by not c/r'ing (ignoring balance for the moment) but I get so much more value on the big streets when many villains misplay their hands. In my mind, it's kind of a hedge/induce spew play. I call this "spew-equity." My wife thinks that term is funny, but how many times have you bet thinking, "please bluff-raise me, please bluff-raise me" against certain villains? I do.

Combo draws have awesome equity on the flop, so I really gain nothing by how many bets go in there. It sucks if they 3-bet and take a free card. If I donk the Turn and they raise me (UI), they only have one card to come and will always fire the river.

I don't think TT ever spews on this board. If so, they will spew verse my turn donk for sheezy. My opinion.

In as far as balance, I agree with you, and I would probably play this hand much more straightforwardly against a good opponent, but I love figuring out little nuanced plays against bad players, especially since it pays off big time for my image.

Also, bad players never play THAT badly if I just check-raise the flop. I can't fold if they call and raise the turn, so I really don't feel like I'm giving anything up by not raising the flop.

And if you think donk-bluffing those makes people spew, wait until you Check-raise 98s on a K72r board, fire 3 barrels, hit an 8 on the river and beat A7o

Just to clarify, I'm only doing this on paired boards right now. I'll c/r the flop as a bluff as well on a K72.

just me. wanted to share.

Agree on the wide range for a flop check-raise, and well turn donk is not my line - but still consider xc xc DONK.

well I did promise my self that I wound't open PA again, but damn bored... now I just don't have much time left so will run it pretty fast over.

HJ's range for a flop 3bet - or something

TdTc, ThTd, 9d9c, 9h9d, 8d8c, 8h8d, 6d6c, 6h6d, AcKd, AdKc, AdKh, AhKd, AhKh, AcQd, AdQc, AdQh, AhQd, AhQh, AhTh, Ah9h, Ah8h, Ah6h, Ah5h, Ah4h, KdQd, KhQh, KhTh, Kh9h, Kh8h, QhTh, Qh9h, JdTd, JhTh, Jd9d, Jh9h, Td9d, Th9h

and

AdAc, AhAd, KdKc, KhKd, QdQc, QhQd, JdJc, JhJd, TdTc, ThTd, 9d9c, 9h9d, 8d8c, 8h8d, 7d7c, 7h7d, 6d6c, 6h6d, AcKd, AdKc, AdKh, AhKd, AhKh, AcQd, AdQc, AdQh, AhQd, AhQh, AcJc, AcJd, AdJc, AdJd, AdJh, AhJd, AhJh, AhTh, Ah9h, Ah8h, Ac7c, Ad7d, Ah7h, Ah6h, Ah5h, Ah4h, KcQd, KdQc, KdQd, KdQh, KhQd, KhQh, KcJc, KcJd, KdJc, KdJd, KdJh, KhJd, KhJh, KhTh, Kh9h, Kh8h, QcJc, QcJd, QdJc, QdJd, QdJh, QhJd, QhJh, QhTh, Qh9h, JcTd, JdTc, JdTd, JdTh, JhTd, JhTh, Jd9d, Jh9h, Td9d, Th9h

OK here goes... just gonna write the EV of our play.

Flop check-raise 0.94BB opp call 2.32BB
Turn: -> opp fold our bet 3.75BB (pot size - ~~ 80% of the time)
-> opp raise our bet 1.59BB -> Hero check-call river 2.99BB

Flop check-raise-call 1.47BB,
Turn -> opp bet 3.53BB -> hero call 3.19BB -> river Hero check-call 4.39BB
> opp bet 3.53BB -> hero raise opp call 5.53BB -> river hero bet opp call 6.79BB

Flop check-call 1.25BB
Turn xr after flop xc 2.49BB
-> opp fold: 4.75BB(pot size),
-> opp 3bet: 0.95BB -> river vs opp bet 2BB
-> opp call: 5.89BB -> river HERO bet 6.49BB vs opp call 7.49

And goes for the xc DONK DONK line

Flop check-call 1.25BB -> DONK turn 2.27BB OPP raise QQ+, JdJc, JsJc, JsJd, AcJc, AcJd, AcJs, AdJc, AdJd, AdJs, AhJc, AhJd, AhJs, AsJc, AsJd, AsJs, As7s, KcJc, KcJd, KcJs, KdJc, KdJd, KdJs, KhJc, KhJd, KhJs, KsJc, KsJd, KsJs, QcJc, QcJd, QcJs, QdJc, QdJd, QdJs, QhJc, QhJd, QhJs, QsJc, QsJd, QsJs, 53s Hero got 0.07BB EV and 1.11BB on a river check-call.

Flop check-call 1.25BB -> DONK turn 2.27BB OPP call TT-88, 66, AQ+, AT-A9, A8s, Ac6c, Ah6h, Ac5c, Ah5h, Ac4c, Ah4h, KQ, KcTc, KhTh, Kc9c, Kh9h, Kc8c, Kh8h, QcTc, QhTh, Qc9c, Qh9h, JcTc, JcTd, JcTh, JcTs, JdTc, JdTd, JdTh, JdTs, JsTc, JsTd, JsTh, Jc9c, Jd9d, T9s
-> hero bet river opp call 5.58BB optimistic because he folds some but they are already weighted so it's OK I think.
-> hero bet river opp raise only 88, -1BB EV

So best win if Opp calldown on our turn DONK is 5.58BB... But out EV is only 2.27BB

Ok this was super complex and the first time I managed not to make an error and run the analyzis on such a big hand, so bear with me for all the errors in the ranges and so. Pretty bad that I can't copy-paste the ranges... Just fuck that I haven't registered PokerAzor so I can't save it (wow you can even see the EV of any turn card... OMG )

Anyway I'm off now, hope you like this - and agree on some of it... Basically we miss value with the BG line.

lol I'm gonna register PA I think.

Stuff Isac did

*Head asplode*

*Head asplode*

Wow. Maybe you can simplify this.... more... for me?


Also, I'm using this line to induce mistakes from my opponents and to minimize getting owned by better hands to which I cannot fold, so I'm not sure how you quantify that, plus image.

For instance, how can you quantify someone calling me down uber light, like Q-high? Where as they would have just mucked had I raised somewhere. Or, the guy that spazz raises my donk with total air and fires the river.

Donk/folding the river is always very dangerous unless the board is just right, like a FD completes that was present on the flop or a 4-straight falls. Even then, when I donk/call, check/call, I'm never folding the best hand. Or the much more rare, donk, bet/call the river (usually losing here, but I'm not folding). This is something to think about as well.

All I know is that I like it.

Wow. Maybe you can simplify this.... more... for me?


Also, I'm using this line to induce mistakes from my opponents and to minimize getting owned by better hands to which I cannot fold, so I'm not sure how you quantify that, plus image.

All I know is that I like it.

Another day maybe

Actually I did miss a villain action if we check-raise the flop he can opviously also call...

Anyway the most EV positive action is if we check-call check-raise and bet river - but how much does he do this with (Jx, TT, 99, A8s, AQ+) ?
The next best line is flop xr/call - xr turn bet river giving us 6.79BB, but again his range for this?

With the xc DONK we got a turn EV on 2.27BB - if he calls and calls the river we got 5.58BB EV, but if he raise the turn with the range I given him - pretty big fwiw, we only got 1.11BB EV on our river check-call.

If we check-raise the flop we got a straight up EV of 2.32BB - which is better than the turn 2.27BB.

OK my head explodes now. I might do some more on the flop xr vs. the xc DONK line tomorrow...

I like review as well, however, this hand has a lot of variables...

Something else I haven't mentioned are the times a better hand just calls me down, fearing a donk/3bet from trips.

There is one thing I'd like to chime in here which may be a little controversial.

IMO there is a tendency for DC players (and 2+2'ers) in particular to try and balance or form an image when there is no need to do so. I'm not saying this is always a bad thing but I wouldn't start thinking about Balance and GTO/nash Equilibirum play for a looooong time while still playing 0.5/1.

Vs bad players in order to extract the maximum you often have to play very exploitably taking lines which sometimes a decent player would rip to pieces in the long run but a bad player simply can't or doesn't care about.

I'm honestly not sure dealing with intanglibles to try and squeeze an extra 0.02BB out of a non-standard maneuver is the best way to be working in these games.

The best example is 3-betting from the BB vs an Open not from the SB HU. I would say vs 90% of the players you SHOULD be playing against in micro and Small stakes games you should just go ahead and 3-bang the top of your range for value because:

1) They don't care about your range and are pretty much Level 0 thinkers
2) They play horrifically in 3-bet pots, either calling down when they're ALWAYS beaten or give you waaaaay too much credit and playing totally fit/fold.
3) They can't take advantage of position

It comes into play in higher games because if you have a narrow 3-betting range from the BB you'll be lit up like a Christmas Tree by a good LAGTAG who's got position on you. I've yet to see someone I'd consider a decent LAGTAG over more than 200 hands at 0.5/1 that I've played with.

HOWEVER:

That said it's great that we're using the tools and thinking outside the box is always refreshing and welcome and it's generated a great discussion....plus it's pushing us past 500 posts as a group so, by all means, keep at it

Boomer, nice post.

Again, I only use this against bad postflop players.

Something else I haven't mentioned are the times a better hand just calls me down, fearing a donk/3bet from trips.

This was calculated in

Thats why all hands are weighted because we don't know how he will play certain hands. He might 3bet flop, raise turn, raise river with TT (not likely at all but he might) He might calldown another Jx or AA (not likely) Only thing that's likely and very close to 100% here is that he would give gas with a 7x and with 88 on the river.

Great post Boomer.

Total agree about the over balancing stuff going on. But we do face other 2+2's, DC's, Stox's, CR's - and those are the players we target - for the rest 90% of our opponents you are certainly right. There's absolut no need for balancing.

But it does make us better suitable for the higher stakes we are hoping to play in the near future. And it's much less expensive to learn at this level than at 2/4 or 3/6.

Absolutely awesome discussion, guys. I was considering this situation yet again this afternoon (I love it here) and sort of like "hedging my bets" on the Flop, almost sarificing that agreeably small +EV spot for the positive benifit that I've induced spewy action or bad calldowns against poor postflop, spazzy opposition. I get paid for poking at them and inducing tilt, really. I love the flow of the game, betting lines, being able to read the board well and know exactly how they are going to react and almost exactly know their holding.

This situation happened to me just 20 minutes ago. I'm actually taking a break to revel in the moment and enjoy the feeling. This is why I play poker.

I sat with 'CaLiRoB' and he has brought me amazing gratefulness for my poker study and my natural abilities that make poker awesome. Thank you CaLiRoB.

CaLiRoB sat down to my right at a Cake poker $.5/1 table. I had a lovely Red Tag (equals bad lag) associated with his name already, which meant I probably had seen him around. Most likely at this very cash table or a $22 nightly LHE tourny that sported about 10-20 people, most of which were either straight drunk (yes, on Wednesday night) or thought this was a click-and-win slot machine. He proceeded to play like Jack Daniels was cheering him on.

Sitting immediately to my right, between us, was a poor casual player that continued to try and 3-bet Mr. Cali with any 2 broadway, and it wasn't working out well. I was coming along when 2 bets or bombing the top of my range. Of course, it was capped most of the time. I was just patient and dropped the hammer when I had good equity and poked at good board textures. Off to the races we went in some huge pots.

Check out this final hand I played with our beloved CaLiRoB: it left me laughing, smiling, and grateful to be alive and be playing this fantastic game.

http://cakepoker.com/en/HandHistory/Default.aspx?Hand=xczFx8TFxsPCxcTExMLHwIjMxcDEzME%3d

Ciao.

BG / Jeff

PS. Yes, I'm Ivana Fahkya on Cake atm. My wife picked out the name. lol. Yes, she rocks. She plays no limit. Ack.

You hand history has a mistake...there's no 8 on the river

She plays No Limit. Ack

Dude INSTA-Fold

While I'm at it I was going through my databse for hands with excess lol-factor just to relieve boredom while I wait for random Computer parts to show up....I believe this counts

Party Poker $0.50/$1.00 Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

Pre Flop: (1.5 SB) Hero is SB with 7 J
1 fold, MP calls, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, BB raises, MP calls, CO calls, Hero calls

Flop: (8 SB) J 7 9 (4 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, MP calls, CO calls, Hero raises, BB calls, MP calls, CO calls

Turn: (8 BB) 4 (4 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, MP calls, CO folds, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, MP calls

River: (17 BB) 7 (3 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, MP folds, Hero 3-bets, BB calls

Final Pot: 23 BB
Hero shows 7 J
Hero wins 22.5 BB
BB mucks T 9
(Rake: $0.50)

Better than a Trifecta? Got to check raise and then B3B the big streets?? Maybe slightly less ownage but more money

And while I'm at it WTF is up with some people??!!

Party Poker $0.50/$1.00 Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

Pre Flop: (1.5 SB) Hero is CO with T J
1 fold, MP calls, Hero raises, BTN calls, SB calls, BB calls, MP calls

Flop: (10 SB) 8 9 4 (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets, MP calls, Hero raises, BTN calls, SB calls, BB calls, MP calls

Turn: (10 BB) 5 (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets, MP folds, Hero calls, BTN calls, SB calls

River: (14 BB) 7 (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero raises, BTN 3-bets, SB folds, BB calls, Hero caps!, BTN calls, BB calls

Final Pot: 26 BB
BTN shows 6 J
BB shows T 9
Hero wins 25 BB
(Rake: $1.00)

Dammit I need my new mouse and headset, I'm going stir-crazy here

How's everyone's month going anyway?

I love poker.

http://cakepoker.com/en/HandHistory/Default.aspx?Hand=xczFx8TFxsDGzMTExMHExYjMxcDEzME%3d

You missed a bet

I've been crushing for the past 2-3 months. I have been studying for a long time and the vids here hugely accelerated my learning and everything has been "coming together" while I've been living here. I'm better understanding profitable situations by table textures. Hand reading just takes practice. Setting yourself up to win by picking a good seat, being in a good frame of mind, and trusting your reads have been key for me.

Bankroll management is a must if this game is to be taken seriously. I've realized that I like 500BBs. If I drop below 200BB it changes my game.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/22/small-stakes-shorthanded/double-barrel-not-double-barrel-440607/#post9526699

Cool thread, imo.

You missed a bet

+1 But I don't know about Cake players :S

Anyone like no cap HU on the river ?
Grabbed by Holdem Manager
Limit Holdem $0.50(BB) Replayer
SB ($19.60)
Hero ($42.20)
UTG ($42.85)
UTG+1 ($50)
CO ($34.60)
BTN ($25.15)

Dealt to Hero K9

check, fold, BTN raises to $1, SB calls $0.75, Hero calls $0.50, UTG calls $0.50,

FLOP ($4) 88K

check, check, check, check,

TURN ($4) 88K9

SB bets $1, Hero calls $1, UTG folds, BTN folds,

RIVER ($6) 88K9K

SB bets $1, Hero raises to $2, SB raises to $3, Hero raises to $4, SB raises to $5, Hero raises to $6, SB raises to $7, Hero raises to $8, SB calls $1,

SB shows 8Q
(Flop 91.1%, Turn 90.9%)

Hero shows K9
(Flop 8.9%, Turn 9.1%)

Hero wins $21