Full Ring No Limit Poker Forums

I'm having a theory argument with a friend of mine, and I figured I'd get the DC community to yell at one of us.

He says that, everything else being equal, your raise size from out of position should be larger than your raise size when in position, and theoretically increase as stack sizes increase, to cut down on your opponents implied odds and to reduce SPR, thus reducing your positional disadvantage. Also, since your range OOP is going to be stronger then IP, we want to charge people more to play against our more defined range, and we want to get more money in when we have an equity advantage

Meanwhile, I say that your raise size OOP should be smaller than IP once stacks are very deep (say 200+BB b/c...
(1) Raising more in EP does nothing to reduce positional disadvantage and we just wind up playing larger pots oop
(2) from LP we're less concerned with getting 3bet AND calling increases as stacks get really deep

Your friend is right.

In regards to (1), you 3bet larger deep simply to increase the pot and to give yourself a better chance to get stacks in the middle.

Point (2) I'm confused with...are you talking about being the initial raiser?

I'm talking about open raising

Point to was a rebuttle to his point that, raising more in LP invites 3bets from the blinds. I noted this is not a major concern due to stacks being so deep.

(1) Raising more in EP does nothing to reduce positional disadvantage and we just wind up playing larger pots oop

this is only a problem if you are playing too many hands from ep. our preflop bet should be based on our range strength. also by minraising say, we end up playing oop more frequently since they will probably be flatting wider.

this is only a problem if you are playing too many hands from ep. our preflop bet should be based on our range strength. also by minraising say, we end up playing oop more frequently since they will probably be flatting wider.

Let's assume same frequencies/ranges from ep. in this scenario

what i mean is the tighter you play from utg, the better raising big is.

The bigger you raise the more equity your opponents need in order to call. The bigger you raise the more often you need your opponents to fold. So there are two sides of the story. When it is certain or very likely that we have position vs our opponents we care less about them folding pre flop because we have such a massive advantage post flop. There it is a bigger concern that it is +EV for us to steal with a lot of hands => we raise small.

An example of where raising big is a problem. SB vs BB. Raising to 4x in the SB is a problem because BB can shove a wider range over our 4bet. 3x or 2.5x depending on the stack sizes is more correct.

The raise size from EP is of very little relevance because it is almost certain that we are going to play a pot OOP. What really matters is the range we pick. The biggest leak for many FR players is that they don't play enough hands in HJ, CO, BTN and SB. How big you raise in EP has little to no effect on your winrate.

The raise size from EP is of very little relevance because it is almost certain that we are going to play a pot OOP. What really matters is the range we pick. The biggest leak for many FR players is that they don't play enough hands in HJ, CO, BTN and SB. How big you raise in EP has little to no effect on your winrate.

I disagree, villains have inelastic calling and 3betting ranges vs UTG where villains don't 3bet us more for raising larger and don't call us less for raising larger as well at <200nl, so considering our opponent's aren't exploiting our raise sizes by increasing their 3bet% and are putting more money into play when they call we usually do make more money in EP by raising to ~3.5-4x because the majority of their calling range, especially OOP, is calling for implied odds and playing fit/fold post-flop quite a bit. The more dead money we create pre-flop, the more dead money we collect post-flop where villains aren't using position to bluff-raise or float the flop often with low equity hands.

If I see a reg calling and check/folding in the SB a lot, I'm 4xing and 3.5xing from UTG and MP for the extra dead money. I agree the raise sizing UTG/EP isn't as important as the raise sizing CO/BTN/SB, but it's still relevant IMO.

I disagree, villains have inelastic calling and 3betting ranges vs UTG where villains don't 3bet us more for raising larger and don't call us less for raising larger as well at <200nl, so considering our opponent's aren't exploiting our raise sizes by increasing their 3bet% and are putting more money into play when they call we usually do make more money in EP by raising to ~3.5-4x because the majority of their calling range, especially OOP, is calling for implied odds and playing fit/fold post-flop quite a bit. The more dead money we create pre-flop, the more dead money we collect post-flop where villains aren't using position to bluff-raise or float the flop often with low equity hands.

If I see a reg calling and check/folding in the SB a lot, I'm 4xing and 3.5xing from UTG and MP for the extra dead money. I agree the raise sizing UTG/EP isn't as important as the raise sizing CO/BTN/SB, but it's still relevant IMO.

Obv. we can exploit stupidity.. But it in FR it still have very very little impact on the overall winrate.

I'd say your friend is right assuming you adjust your range to your position and play tighter from EP. Get more dead money with better hands and discourage position players with speculative hands who might suck out on you.

However, I like to play a standard raise size regardless of pos / handstrength so I'm no expert on this.
The main thing that encourages me to PFR larger is having calling stations in the blinds.