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Merge Network $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 8 players - View hand 1805463
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Relatively unknown here only 48 hands on villian who is 26/17 and has only 3B against me so far. Each time when I opened the CO. I folded the first two times but this time I opted to call, because I thought he might be getting out of line. JQo is a little weak for this? Better to 4B as a bluff? Should I have raised the flop (probably huh)? Gotta bet the turn when checked too, for value from draws/Pair + draws and TT, 99 right?

UTG+1: $10.53
MP1: $2.85
MP2: $13.46
Hero (CO): $18.76
BTN: $14.78
SB: $12.25
BB: $8.72
UTG: $6.95

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is CO with J Q
4 folds, Hero raises to $0.28, 1 fold, SB raises to $0.70, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.42

Flop: ($1.50) J 8 3 (2 players)
SB bets $0.90, Hero calls $0.90

Turn: ($3.30) 7 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: ($3.30) 9 (2 players)
SB bets $3.30, Hero??????

As played does full pot on the river look like a missed FD or betting for value?

Well to me it looks like maybe he was defending his SB from another CO steal attempt, as I don't know what else you had bet to precipitate the two previous 3-bets. Yes JQo is a little weak for a call here. I would just tighten up my steal range and fold this one. Although JQo is fine for a raise and that I would just fold to his defense, knowing I'll get a chance to catch this possible over aggression later.

Now on the flop you get top pair, with a flush and a straight draw on board. I think his is a possible C-bet, so I would raise and fold to a reraise, then check back the turn because if he is still there he's not leaving.

On the river well so many hands beat you, and he has appeared to like his hand. Also at this level an OOP bluf is unlikely, so to me it looks like a " I want your stack bet" to me. I'd fold.

I am wondering what range would you flat with?

Or is flatting in this spot just not a good idea?

When it goes ck/ck on the turn and then he fires full pot I think its trips or a straight or complete air. At the time my brain told me his bet screamed "I want you to fold"

I definitely fold pre with this hand when facing a 3 bet. Calling puts you in a lot of tough spots postflop with a dominated hand.
In appropriate circumstances, calling with QJs might be ok, but I really don't recommand it at 10NL. To flat 3 bets, even in position, you have to be able to bluff / semi bluff and have a good skill advantage to make the play profitable. Considering that you will mainly beat 10NL my value betting correctly instead of running big bluffs in bigs pots, I think that simply folding and opening a little less from CO when this player is in the blinds (as mentionned by the previous poster) is the best solution. Also, you definitely flat hands like TT-JJ as a starting point.

4 bet bluffing isnt a bad idea, but I prefer to do it with an Ax hand (blockers). Altough, I prefer to have a good sample size (1k hands+) on vilain before starting to make these moves. I want to be sure that he is really 3 betting wide and can fold to a 4 bet.

Your flatting and your 4 betting range will depend on differents factors.... how often vilain 3 bet, fold to 4 bet, how he plays postflop, how you are capable of exploiting him postflop etc...


As how the hand played postflop, I think that I prefer flatting flop. Raising the flop vs his cbet is really really thin value. To do so, you have to be certain that vilain is 3 betting and cbetting a wide range and has enough draws in his range to call with a worse hand. By raising, you are likely to make vilain fold most of his bluffs except those that have good equity vs you. Some aggressive players do it because they have an aggressive image and they know they can value raise thin in theses spots (but you see it at higher stakes mainly). Personnaly, I prefer to flat, plus, I don't think you need to worry about value raising thin to be able to beat 10NL.

I prefer betting something like half pot OTT for value and protection.

OTR, there are 2 ways to see it, depend on the level vilain think :

1- He checked behind OTT, he has a weak hand, so let's push him off his weak hands.

2- He checked behind, he have some SD value then. Try to extract the max from him.

Personnaly, I think his line looks weird, but he could easily have some Tx in his range here..... I really depend on what you know about vilain so far. You are really bluff catching here and this is probably close. I would lean toward folding here when facing a pot size bet OTR, unless if he his on the aggressive side, you could probably call and take a note on him. So far, we don't have much information.

I definitely fold pre with this hand when facing a 3 bet. Calling puts you in a lot of tough spots postflop with a dominated hand.
In appropriate circumstances, calling with QJs might be ok, but I really don't recommand it at 10NL. To flat 3 bets, even in position, you have to be able to bluff / semi bluff and have a good skill advantage to make the play profitable. Considering that you will mainly beat 10NL my value betting correctly instead of running big bluffs in bigs pots, I think that simply folding and opening a little less from CO when this player is in the blinds (as mentionned by the previous poster) is the best solution. Also, you definitely flat hands like TT-JJ as a starting point.

4 bet bluffing isnt a bad idea, but I prefer to do it with an Ax hand (blockers). Altough, I prefer to have a good sample size (1k hands+) on vilain before starting to make these moves. I want to be sure that he is really 3 betting wide and can fold to a 4 bet.

Your flatting and your 4 betting range will depend on differents factors.... how often vilain 3 bet, fold to 4 bet, how he plays postflop, how you are capable of exploiting him postflop etc...


As how the hand played postflop, I think that I prefer flatting flop. Raising the flop vs his cbet is really really thin value. To do so, you have to be certain that vilain is 3 betting and cbetting a wide range and has enough draws in his range to call with a worse hand. By raising, you are likely to make vilain fold most of his bluffs except those that have good equity vs you. Some aggressive players do it because they have an aggressive image and they know they can value raise thin in theses spots (but you see it at higher stakes mainly). Personnaly, I prefer to flat, plus, I don't think you need to worry about value raising thin to be able to beat 10NL.

I prefer betting something like half pot OTT for value and protection.

OTR, there are 2 ways to see it, depend on the level vilain think :

1- He checked behind OTT, he has a weak hand, so let's push him off his weak hands.

2- He checked behind, he have some SD value then. Try to extract the max from him.

Personnaly, I think his line looks weird, but he could easily have some Tx in his range here..... I really depend on what you know about vilain so far. You are really bluff catching here and this is probably close. I would lean toward folding here when facing a pot size bet OTR, unless if he his on the aggressive side, you could probably call and take a note on him. So far, we don't have much information.

Thanks for the input, I see the following as GOLD

I definitely fold pre with this hand when facing a 3 bet. Calling puts you in a lot of tough spots postflop with a dominated hand. (applies to all dominated hands)

To flat 3 bets, even in position, you have to be able to bluff / semi bluff and have a good skill advantage to make the play profitable. Considering that you will mainly beat 10NL my value betting correctly instead of running big bluffs in bigs pots, I think that simply folding and opening a little less from CO when this player is in the blinds (as mentionned by the previous poster) is the best solution. (I need to tighten up my value range vs this player)

Personnaly, I prefer to flat, plus, I don't think you need to worry about value raising thin to be able to beat 10NL. (OMG such a simple concept, yet I keep out thinking myself)
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When you bet 1/2 pot on the turn what do you do to a click it back raise?

When you bet 1/2 pot on the turn what do you do to a click it back raise?

That is a good question. Without a read that he is check-raising turn as a bluff, I am folding here without much toughts. You have to be sure that he has a wide 3 betting range in that spot and that he is very aggressive postflop in general and you know that he can run big bluffs.

Also, players with strongs draws in this spot will usually bet flop, turn, and ship river in this spot and this line gets way more credit and looks the same as hands like AA/KK. Altought, I think that in the micros, players with strong draws are more likely to bet flop and shutdown OTT or OTR.

Altough, any good player with a good hand will not want to take the risk of giving you a free card on that board, so check shoving would look like a very weird line to me.

you may be right that he's getting out of line, but QJ is not the hand to defend with.

also remember you can always just change tables. way easier spots to at 10nl. i found starting a bunch of tables is +ev, usually fish are the 2nd ones to sit down.

Hi Kobe24poker

What would I flat here? Any pocket pair as he has $12+ so if set mined you could get enough value. Also you know if you hit or just need to fold. With a pocket pair the flop decision is easy.

Suited connectors or one gap I'd probably fold because he is 24/17 over 48 hands. Not much history but without a specific idea that he would be very aggressive in a blind defense you could be dominated as MaskedmanQc states.

On the flop, once again MaskedManQc is correct, a reraise as I suggested is thin but if you wanted to contest I think that would be the spot to do it.

The turn ck/ck then the raise on the river is indicative, to me at this level, of a made straight, like Q10 that villian would have decided was good to defend. His line seems weird but at this level everyone is learning correct lines or stuck with weirdness. So I'm thinking a made staight is betting the gut shot on the flop, or maybe a 107 suited, with implied odds and then checking the turn without implied odds as this is the most normal line at this level for a learning and thinking player.

I also like all of MaskedManQc's post.

Harley,

No raise on the river just a full pot bet into me on the river. Action was 3B out BB, I call. Flop J83s he CB's .90-1.50 OOP, turn 7r ck/ck, river 9r he pots it.

If he wanted to play for stacks all he had to do was bet the turn and river. Maybe he had a hand he only wanted one more street of value from, but why bet the river on such a scary board if that was the case. He also could have slow played and at these stakes you see more of that than I would think goes on at NL 50+.

I think this is probably a great spot to 4b bluff. QJ has pretty good blocker value, since you block QQ, JJ, AQ, AJ.

Also, his 3b sizing is pretty small, it's a little less than 2 1/2x the open raise, I think this hand is a little bit too good to fold to such a small 3b while we have the positional advantage, especially since we seem to be getting an aggro dynamic going, and we're like 120 bb deep, and on the river I expect him to have a straight often enough to fold. I think you need to bet the turn, this is the street to charge the draws, they don't call when they brick off on the river. I think a 4b pre>call>fold. Vs a little bigger raise size, folding might be okay pre. Interested if this seems to be his standard bet size in this spot pre and on the river, or is he varying the sizes? Also interested to know what others make of the bet sizings, the smaller 3 bets seem to be kind of trendy, and I think sometimes they might be pretty good, especially in position, but in this spot I don't think I like the mini 3b, but if you are folding too much, maybe it's not so terrible.

@Maskeman:

Great posts



I actually prefer checking the turn to allow us to bluff catch the river. People do stupid stuff in 3bet pots, and his preflop sizing and the stakes/his stats doesn't exactly suggest he's a smart, disciplined lad.

I think folding is better than calling too; it's probably a mistake theortically to fold, but in reality OP is probably gonna spew post-flop, which isn't hard to do. We got in a great spot here, flopped TP, and it's left us scratching our heads wondering what to do with it. I'm not sure if it's better to 4bet this; does anyone know of a program/chart or some link that can help me figure out when it's profitable to 4bet?

His 3bet sizing along with this stats tells me he's likely quite spewy, and prone to do something random and dumb. That being said, 3bet small isn't a bad thing under a lot of circumstances because people don't respond to them well.


As played, ugh it's kinda gross, I'd call and hope he's being dumb, either way we're gonna gain a bunch of information on the guy(he plays AA badly, pots air or pots river made hands) However, I'm not certain whether it's good either way.

Sorry guys my terminollogy is off, like calling it a raise on the river, which is correctly a bet. I hope you still get my drift.

I think I learnded alot from these posts. I also learn just by putting my ideas on the line, then returning and reading other ideas.

Let's keep it up!

Anybody want to sweat each other. Private message me.