Full Ring No Limit Poker Forums

OK, sitting at a £1-£2 and fairly deep, effective stacks approx £500.

UTG makes it £14 to go.
He is a strange player, difficult to classify. Not because he's necessarily good - more because he seems to play by emotion... So one day he'll be sitting with £150 and shoving any suited King; another day he'll be laying down Aces to a strong raise on the flop... Today he is winning, and playing fairly tight. Here, I put him on a fairly decent hand. Though if I raise I don't think he'll want to get it in without QQ+ vs me.

I am on his immediate left and I have K K
I elect to just call.

SB calls, with £125 behind.
BB calls, with £500 behind.

Pot: £56
Flop 7 8 9

SB bets out £45. He is new to the table, about his fourth hand, I have absolutely no read on him except that he is a young-ish Chinese kid.

BB folds.

UTG raises to £80.

I call.

SB shoves for £125 total.

UTG calls.

I raise (have to argue and explain to the dealer that yes, I can raise, which is not a situation I like to be in) another £100.

UTG dwells and then calls.

Pot: £231 + £200
Turn: 7

UTG plays with his chips a while, counts them out, stacks them, plays with them some more. Then checks. (I'm pretty sure this is a sign he wants me to check behind).

I bet £200. (He has about £220 or so)

He dwells for a while and then folds.

I take the side pot. Chinese kid shows 8 8 for a house.

River is Q

I muck.

So I lost £39 with Kings; but how did I play it? Am I burning money? I was trying to find the balance of making money when I'm winning vs JJ, QQ, charging draws, and also (possibly) putting pressure on a hand that beats me (i.e. pocket Aces).

So I lost £39 with Kings; but how did I play it? .

Quite badly, i am not a fan.

ya, you should 3bet pre, id say its mandatory. as played that flop is about as bad for you as possible and you have 2 people showing strength. i also dislike your backraise (which i dont think is allowed, but your numbers are off: if sb lead £45 a minraise would be 90 meaning the allin is an underraise) butthe real problem is the flat pre imo.

You're right, sorry, the Chinese kid led out for £35. The rest of the numbers are correct.
Yes I agree that raising pre is standard and best. However, once we've flatted pre, we just have to deal with it and get on with the hand.
One argument would be: just dump it and move on. But I think KK is too strong for that?

When some randon Asian live player leads out on 789fd and someone raises him you fold KK becasue you are doing worse % than the economy

When some randon Asian live player leads out on 789fd and someone raises him you fold KK becasue you are doing worse % than the economy

Because KK is behind the random Chinese kid's range?
Because it's behind the other guy's range? (It's not).

Obviously I'm in a tough spot. Results-wise, folding the flop would have been best. Though this gives me no chance to win money off the other guy (if he calls the turn shove I actually make money after all).

If we take UTG out of the question, we're happy to ship it vs the Chinese kid right? Well not exactly happy but you know what I mean.

The UTG raise to 7x screams JJ or TT. Either a call or raise is profitable. Neither is mandatory. As played, you're seeing the flop with an SPR of 9ish, which seems to high to stack off with an overpair on this board. Although, once BB raises, I think you can play simply because you're going to profit from his larger stack and likely hand of TT-JJ (I'm really going with my read here) to offset the fact that SB likely has you beat for the main pot. You need to look at how to milk the BB for the maximum. Once he checks the turn, he doesn't have TT, so it's now probably JJ that he doesn't feel good about. Don't shove, instead bet $50-75 which will demand a call from JJ. River Q seems like a check back against UTG because QQ and TT both beat you and JJ probably won't call.

arguing that 3betting pre is not mandatory because it will also be profitable to flat is silly imo. ofc we're gonna make $ with KK but we really dont want to see a 4way+ flop with it, and live players rarely fold to 3bets ime. also, a $14 raise may be the table standard so you cant just automatically say he has TT-JJ, but more likely every hand he is opening from that position. another thing is that saying he cant have TT ott because he checked is weird as he really shouldnt bet anything there and im confused as to why you think he should.

I play live exclusively, and in my games, a 7x UTG raise is a hand that people are playing because they someone told them it was good, but they're terrified of seeing a bad flop and not knowing what to do.

Could 7x be the standard here, I guess, but I'd like to know from the OP. Also, live players fold to 3x bets all the time. A 3 bet is going to narrow the field quite a bit, most likely to 1 or 0 opponents. The SB is not really getting good odds to set mine wit a stack of 125 and a call of 14, so his call is marginal at best and probably unprofitable OOP.

We make money when our opponents make mistakes. And I don't see how TT is checking this turn, particularly given the live read.

If the only info we have is that he's the sort of player that can shove 150 with a suited king then 3betting is far and away going to be the best play. This is especially the case because you are deep.

If UTG is getting it in light, shove away. But OP said he felt he wouldn't stack off pre without QQ+.

A donk bet and a raise on this flop makes me want to turbomuck KK here.

Also, don't post the results of your hands. If you do, then you can get biased answers. With that being said, I wanted to fold as soon as I read the action on the flop.

Maybe he doesn't stack wider than QQ+ pre but I highly doubt that he is folding to the 3bet that much.

A donk bet and a raise on this flop makes me want to turbomuck KK here.

Also, don't post the results of your hands. If you do, then you can get biased answers. With that being said, I wanted to fold as soon as I read the action on the flop.

My thoughts exactly.

A donk bet and a raise on this flop makes me want to turbomuck KK here.

Also, don't post the results of your hands. If you do, then you can get biased answers. With that being said, I wanted to fold as soon as I read the action on the flop.

+2
I agree w/ the others that you should be 3betting preflop, but since you decided to play it tricky, you have to be willing to release given the horrible board and flop action. You haven't induced anything because the villians can't put you on a hand as strong as KK. Their flop action is representing ranges that have KK crushed.