Full Ring No Limit Poker Forums

I played a 7 hour session last night at the casino and I am concerned that I may have a bet sizing leak in my game. I am not sure tho

In $1/$2 live games you see a lot of crazy stuff happening. Things like 8-9x preflop raises or overbetting the size of the pot when making a c-bet

I see this all day everyday each and everytime that I goto the casino. I have always thought it to just be bad plays being made by bad players

So I subscribed to deuce plays premium as well as purchased several poker books to see what the 'experts' had to say about this. Bart says that most live players are clueless when it comes to pot size. That's why they make these crazy overbets. It's a situation of where you are way ahead or way behind and these large overbets are just throwing money away because you will always fold out the hands you beat but only get called by hands that have you crushed

Armed with this information, I hit the tables for the past month and have tried to play 'good proper poker' with correct bet and raise sizes and it just doesn't seem to work in $1/$2 live

For example, when I c-bet $10 into the $10 pot the guy who called and sucked out on me told me that I only made it $10 so he HAD to call with his gutshot. How much more should I have made it besides a full pot sized bet? I don't get his logic

So last night I played pretty passively and just wanted to sit and watch what everyone was doing because I really want to figure out how to win at this game

There was one older guy who was sitting with over $1,000 bucks and all I ever saw him do was play ABC simple poker. If he hit he bet. If he missed he folded. All night long. He even said out loud several times that everyone should be aware that he only plays the nuts. And it was true. Flop is 9 10 Q...well, he was indeed showing down KJ at the river

But there were 2-3 players with huge stacks that seemed to be very lagg players.
This chick would do stuff like c-bet $35 into a $20 pot and actually get 2 callers! WTF?
I also saw her make a turn shove of $200+ into a $100 pot.

There was another guy doing the same thing. I guess I don't get it? Everything in the books and podcasts say that this is donkey poker and that they are playing wrong.

I am also seeing a whole lot of $17 preflop raises. Why so much?

There was one hand when I had QQ on the button and only one player limped, so I made it $12. When the hand was over the guy looked at me and said he knew I had QQ. I asked him how and he said because I did not raise it enough preflop to be KK or AA? I guess that Im lost to his logic?

Is $1/$2 live different or something? Is it an exception from the rules of proper poker?

Can someone help me understand?

Am I playing way too passively in $1/$2? Are my bet sizes too small? Is this why I can't get paid with my big hands and usually only win small pots or lose big ones when my hands get cracked?

Thanks,
Trav

Make a lot of big and fat value bets.

Meh, I typically don't listen to the $1/$2 "regs" when it comes logic. I still like to make my standard $6-$8 opens unless I'm ISO'ing and then raise it to $10ish. The good thing is that these players ARE pretty bad and for some reason can't seem to adapt at all. You have to treat them like your typical 60/7 loose passive online and adjust when you face heat. In $1/$2 live, if they raise, they have it. Simple as that. You pretty much never see 3bets with anything less than QQ+ and AKs. The games are pretty easily exploited just by playing ABC poker. Treat it like $2-$10NL online and you should be ok.

TravD--

I think you are stuck in the 'magic formula' trap. Not saying you are, just that it sounds like it. I used to think "if i play like this .... with this board, I should win" and I would be able to fade some randomness from suckouts.

But I am beginning to think that "every opponent is different, so opponents are more like ingredients, and the table will 'taste' differently based not just on which 8 are sitting around me, but also, what order they are. Ever drink wine without food, and notice the difference when it was WITH food?

So, now I try to pay attention to a constantly changing swirl around me (and no, despite the descriptions, I still suck) and notice stuff like who is the one on tilt, who plays better when winning, or worse when losing a big hand. Who seems bored, who is about to go home, and who doesn't mind doing it 'broke' as opposed to my own "hate to go home loser" mentality. (sorry Tommy A still learning to stand at table)

As for advice, I would not pay attention to who is winning or losing today. But, I think you ARE on the right track. Notice whether ABC poker is winning over several visits. (It probably will be) and see what changes the LAG girl does, (maybe even ask her?) and try and capture ALL of the details. Many times, when I notice others playing a different style, I fail to notice the crucial elements that made their play work, so that when I try it, it fails massively.

good luck

which

PS Are you sure you are not letting your feelings show at the table? You seem very emotional in some of your posts, and I wonder if the live players are not intentionally trying to get under your skin. Having some random old guy call a pot size bet, saying "hey, you would have bet more with AA" seems pure BS. But even old guys know how to rub a suckout in on a young aggro perceived as an online expert.

Having some random old guy call a pot size bet, saying "hey, you would have bet more with AA" seems pure BS.

It's not pure BS, this is how most of them truly think. The reasoning is because have been playing way before you could online and this is their "standard". They probably have no clue about pot equity vs hand equity or anything else that is math related. They just go what they have always done.

Live small stakes players aren't thinking about bet sizing. They aren't keeping the pot size in their heads; to them it's just a big stack of chips in the middle. They aren't thinking about the size of their bets and they aren't thinking about what the size of your bets mean.

Because of this, you can make some adjustments that will absolutely destroy your opponents' lack of awareness. Make big value bets with big hands. For example, say you over-limp 22 on the button and it ends up going to the flop 7-handed in a 1/2 game. The pot is now $14. When the board comes KJ2 and it gets checked around, don't try and make some pot size appropriate bet like $10, just bomb out $25 because the people playing K9 or JT type hands that limped and checked (super common) will call your $25 bet just as frequently as a $10 bet. They aren't thinking "wow, that's an overbet", they're thinking "I have a pair, so I call a bet".

In the same fashion, if you have a read that your villain is drawing to a flush and you are ahead of him with two pair, you can make big bets because villain isn't thinking "well, I have 9-12 outs, so I need to be good about 30% of the time, so I can only call if he bets less than X% of the pot". Villains are thinking "I'm drawing to the nuts, I call your bet".

It is hugely important to understand what recreational players are thinking about bet sizing (in most cases, they aren't). But it's even more important to understand why they are or aren't thinking about it, because you can exploit the 'why' reasoning really effectively.

you should do what you think is the most EV play. if there is 50$ pot on the river and there is a guy who wont let go top pair, bet 3x pot or more with your winning hand, if you have AA and people pay10bb to see a flop why bet just standard 3x?get max value from them.if they wont let go 2nd pair why bluff them?and dont try to get them to fold gutshots,just charge the max what you think they will pay, dont be mad if they suckout sometimess, you will get a TON of money from them.i know it sucks when you make it 14with KK and he calls with A2 and you see a A82flop,but look for the long run. just try to think more of the spots where you think you will get money from them and exploit them

1 month of live poker is not a lot, btw.

Yeah, I think you are thinking too much along the lines of what Which was saying about trying to find a "winning formula." I mean it's good to know standard bet sizes and why they are standard, etc. but we should be most concerned with what lines are most +EV when we are playing against villains with obvious leaks.

I do think it is good that you are talking to the other players at the table to get an idea of how they think about poker. Most of the time their logic makes little to no sense, but a lot of time you can use this knowledge to help you better understand them as a player. If you understand how they think, you will have a huge advantage in playing against them.

As far as preflop raise sizing goes, I will often make my opens a lot bigger in a live 1/2 game than I will online. This is usually because I will often get called either way so I don't mind bloating the pot with a strong range.