Full Ring No Limit Poker Forums

Info I have on villain:

He is a live reg that typically plays in the 2/5 games and also higher in other poker rooms that spread different stakes. From what I've heard he's a big winner in these games and everyone respects him as a player (I view him as kind of spewy but it could be a result of playing lower stakes and also most live regs are weak/tight) He's playing 1/3 because it's late and there are no other games running. So far he's playing loose and aggressively, both opening and calling a lot pre-flop. It seems like he is often calling with a wide range OTF planning to steal pots on later streets. We're playing 6 or 7 handed at the time of this hand. I should also note that I've been fairly active but nothing too crazy and villain probably doesn't perceive me to be getting out of line.

Pre:

Folds to villain OTB who opens for $15. I pick up A8s in the SB and decide to 3bet to $50. Effective stacks about $450. He calls. I've 3bet him once previously IP and he folded but it's early at this point so I'm not sure how he'll react (He ended up calling all my 3bets IP) So I'm not really sure I love my 3bet, I should probably depolarize and use hands that make good TP.

($100) Flop: Ts9s6d

Hero c-bets $65 and he calls. Given that we're deep I expect him to call with a wide range of pair+draw hands, Tx, 9x and some overcard hands.

Turn: 4s

Hero turns the nuts but decides to check. Not sure if this is the right play, but my reasoning was I think it's more likely he bluffs off his whole stack then calls it off. He has a lot of weak hands in his range and he probably sees this as a good card to bluff because he shouldn't expect me to have a lot of flushes.

Villain bets $100 and hero calls.

River bricks and goes check/check.

Would like to hear thoughts on all streets, particularly turn and river.

Preflop I think is ok.
Flop is fine.
I think your turn bet should be at least $150 to get max value.
I think you have to bet the river.
I just don't think you can expect or rely on live players bluffing the river often enough to make a c/r
line profitable. Even if he is good/aggessive, you can't expect him to bet the river after you've 3-bet
preflop, c-bet a flop that's not great for your preflop 3-betting range, and led the turn when the flush gets there.

I think checking the turn is okay, but I tend to prefer a bet, probably something in line with your flop bet. Still, once you do c/c the turn, I don't think many decent players are going to attempt to bluff you on a brick river very often (most hands that will do it are going to be QJ/KJ imo, but not reliably), and I'd guess their value betting range would be 2p+. You may be able to donk jam the river, though, and get looked up by some top pairish hands that are going to think of it as a wa/wb situation when checked to.

Still getting a feel for live, though, so any disagreements are probably well-founded.

Preflop I think is ok.
Flop is fine.
I think your turn bet should be at least $150 to get max value.
I think you have to bet the river.
I just don't think you can expect or rely on live players bluffing the river often enough to make a c/r
line profitable. Even if he is good/aggessive, you can't expect him to bet the river after you've 3-bet
preflop, c-bet a flop that's not great for your preflop 3-betting range, and led the turn when the flush gets there.

Disregard my post. I wrote that late last night....Completely misread your hand history....lol.

I think checking the turn is okay, but I tend to prefer a bet, probably something in line with your flop bet. Still, once you do c/c the turn, I don't think many decent players are going to attempt to bluff you on a brick river very often (most hands that will do it are going to be QJ/KJ imo, but not reliably), and I'd guess their value betting range would be 2p+. You may be able to donk jam the river, though, and get looked up by some top pairish hands that are going to think of it as a wa/wb situation when checked to.

Still getting a feel for live, though, so any disagreements are probably well-founded.

Thanks for the feedback. Live is definitely different but this villain was a thinking player and doesn't play like a typical low limit live player.

Disregard my post. I wrote that late last night....Completely misread your hand history....lol.

Haha no problem. It can get confusing without the hand converter.

As played I would lead out on the river. I prefer a big bet to make it look more bluffy. Since the river was a brick I dont see the villian continuing with his bluffs after you check/call the turn. He is a thinking player so I just don't see him making that play. Did you consider c/r the turn? Might appear less strong to him since the turn is such a great card to bluff. Might get more value or induce a spazz. Probably not if he is good but just something to consider.

As played I would lead out on the river. I prefer a big bet to make it look more bluffy. Since the river was a brick I dont see the villian continuing with his bluffs after you check/call the turn. He is a thinking player so I just don't see him making that play. Did you consider c/r the turn? Might appear less strong to him since the turn is such a great card to bluff. Might get more value or induce a spazz. Probably not if he is good but just something to consider.

I did consider this, but I think I only had somewhere between $200-$250 left after he bet $100. I think I might have had my starting stack wrong in the original post. Probably closer to $220 left, so if I ch/r the turn, I pretty much just have to go AI. I agree that I should have bet the river as played. I think it's too optimistic to think he will bluff again or value bet thinly. What do you think about betting small on the river to induce?

I did consider this, but I think I only had somewhere between $200-$250 left after he bet $100. I think I might have had my starting stack wrong in the original post. Probably closer to $220 left, so if I ch/r the turn, I pretty much just have to go AI. I agree that I should have bet the river as played. I think it's too optimistic to think he will bluff again or value bet thinly. What do you think about betting small on the river to induce?

Meh, I dont like it. I mean it depends on our bet size but if we dont think he will bluff the river and he isnt betting for thin value it's doubtful we can induce with a small bet on the river. Also, he might read a small bet as a value bet begging to be called. I actually dont mind c/r AI on the turn. I think it disguises our hand better than just check/calling. His thought process might include " why would he shove with the nuts?" A I have seen so many live players fall for that trap. They just dont have the ability to put a player on a value bet shove with the nuts so they call expecting to see a bluff. You can always balance this with bluffs as well although not sure we have to worry about that at 1/3.

Meh, I dont like it. I mean it depends on our bet size but if we dont think he will bluff the river and he isnt betting for thin value it's doubtful we can induce with a small bet on the river. Also, he might read a small bet as a value bet begging to be called. I actually dont mind c/r AI on the turn. I think it disguises our hand better than just check/calling. His thought process might include " why would he shove with the nuts?" A I have seen so many live players fall for that trap. They just dont have the ability to put a player on a value bet shove with the nuts so they call expecting to see a bluff. You can always balance this with bluffs as well although not sure we have to worry about that at 1/3.

This player isn't the average live player imo, but I get what you are saying.

I get what you're thinking here but in live poker the mantra is bet for value. Bet turn for value and put the rest in on the river. Three-bet pots are generally not a good place to get creative. Most people play pretty straight forward in 3bet pots, especially on the turn and river.

I get what you're thinking here but in live poker the mantra is bet for value. Bet turn for value and put the rest in on the river. Three-bet pots are generally not a good place to get creative. Most people play pretty straight forward in 3bet pots, especially on the turn and river.

You're probably right. This was probably just a little FPS.

i actually think the turn can go either way, and i dont dislike checking the turn. So the question is what do villain think your range for leading the turn would be versus a c/c or c/r? Im shocked nobody even addressed that directly.

C/c kind of seems like the worst play imo, not that it isnt valid against most people but it is sounding like he will expect us to have a pretty value heavy range and we are basically expecting him to try and move us off ( this clearly is a guessing point on to how villain levels himself but i think its the safer thing to assume when we make this type of move here).

If he hand reads us some, we are basically only stacking him when he has a decent value hand. Most of the time, we are getting those chips anyways regardless of what we do so we really don't induce him to make a play at use much.

If he is spewy and will still kind of stick to his plan in his head on the flop ( aka float to take down pots on later streets) he will likely do it anyways so again we don't induce any more actions or any less actions from his range a lot of the time.

If he is really bad, he can still call with the same mentality of restealing turn, but basically that thinking on the river. Also bc people tend to play rivers st8 forward, i would think its likely that if you two barrel and check he could level himself to think that with the weak parts of his range he is likely beat and that the only chance he has to win is to try and turn his hand into a bluff.

I think our range for going 2 barrels and checking will likely look weaker then cbetting then check calling for sure. The only question is then how does our range look like to him for either c/ring turn or 2 barreling and checking river. Going 3 barrels is never really wrong tbh ( assuming the river doesnt give him the chance to fill up) but it isnt always going to be ideal and i would expect his is almost never stacking off 3 streets here and if so, we were getting the chips anyways on earlier streets.

So after that long winded post, what do you feel his range he will assign you to would be for 2 barrel checking or cbet raising.

odviously things change a lot depending on your effective stack sizes but we can just play around with that as another variable if you want to make this a little more interesting

Good post rrumsey, thanks for taking the time. I think my perceived turn barrel range would look something like (JJ+, AK, AQ (w/spade), some flushes and maybe TT)

Ch/r range probably looks similar but probably take out JJ and QQ and some of the AK, AQ combos

This is obviously all just guess work but what do you think?

Good post rrumsey, thanks for taking the time. I think my perceived turn barrel range would look something like (JJ+, AK, AQ (w/spade), some flushes and maybe TT)

Ch/r range probably looks similar but probably take out JJ and QQ and some of the AK, AQ combos

This is obviously all just guess work but what do you think?

seems reasonable. so your expecting a c/r or check shove here to be perceived as stronger? Don't you think you could have some air doing either? Now i have never really played live much ( maybe 500-600 hands lifetime) so idk where a decent winning reg who plays higher limits will fall on the leveling scale here so its actually a legit question i have no answer too. You seem to play attention so i figure your judgment is going to be the best we got.