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Hey, everyone. It's my first post here. I play a lot of online games, but I'm finding myself play more live tournaments. I just feel more at home, I like it a lot more. I've got a question about a play I made.

I've been playing 'serious' hold 'em for about 3-4 months now. On my fourth damn book, cramming all I can. Being semi new, I'm not sure if this was a good move or not.

In a tourney at the local card room. Down to four players. I'm about tied, a little lower, than big stack. I'm at seat 7 and seat 1 is big stack. Seat 3 and 5 are shortstacks, about the same amount, probably a quarter of what I have. I'm big blind. Big stack folds, button goes all in (small stack) and sb calls (small stack). I find myself holding Jacks, a hand I really wanted to play. It took me all of 2 seconds to muck it though. I threw it in and one jack hit a chip and was exposed.

It's the showdown and each player has AQ. The board didn't help either one. I would have won. They asked me what the other card was. I saw it sitting just outside the muck and told the dealer if he can, he might as well flip it over. He flips over the other jack and everyone was amazed, not really calling my play good or shit. I pointed out if they were going to knock each other out, they can have at it. It's too close to the money for me to risk something someone else will do for me. The chips I have are worth more to me than the chips I can gain, I guess.

The big stack saw my jacks and said, "If you're willing to fold jacks, but take a huge pot with A5 that you played earlier (big blind, called a min raise with it) I don't know what the f**k to think." From then on, it was easy to control the table. Walked away in first.

Was it the right play? It feels like it, I would have played anything higher than jacks MAYBE. The short stacks are just too damn unpredictable and two overcards to my jacks are too damn dangerous to lose what I have.

Right play? Yeah? No?

Welcome

Ok I did my best to improvise on stacks etc. And also do not know if we on the bubble or not? Cash at 3rd or 2nd?

Anyways here's what I plugged into Wiz.

UTG t6000
BU t1250
SB t1450
BB t4560

Took a stab at the blinds....150/300

Huge edge.... push it all day long.

If you can enter some of the random numbers here.. ie stacks, payout. It will make it easier to analyze.

Gl and welcome again

Doug

It's not really possible to answer 100% definitively without the payout structure and stack sizes, but in most any situation where the small stack open jams the button where the big stack has already folded, if you have jacks in the blind its a gogogogo fist pump super speed of light ultra shove, especially when you get to close the action in the big blind (well, almost, but without some ninja read I'm not worried about the SB's call).

edit: in live poker, unless sb is super short after the call, you might even get him to fold AQ in that spot. I know I know, but I've seen it.

Yeah, at first I was wondering what the stack sizes were....what the payout structure was......what your reads on the two smalls were.....and then I asked myself - what's the use? What stack-size dynamic/thor-lock read/unheard-of payout structure could you come up with that would ever make this a fold?

Nothing.

Nothing can get me to not shove here..........4-handed, I am simply NEVER laying this down. Especially in live tournies - you'll see Ax here a ton of the time and 22-99 or wierd suited broadway cards a ton also, especially if the blinds were large relative to either shorty's stack.

In short - I'm glad you won, but I think it's a major leak not to take advantage of premo opportunities late. Unless you run like GOD, you've gotta push these edges when they become available to have a chance to take it down.

Hard to say without the exact info, but I can't see folding normally because they both are short and probably on pretty wide ranges and there is a likelyhood that you dominate at least one of them and so are flipping with one with the other's stack as overlay or that they share each others outs (They both have Ax). I guess worst case (other than one having QQ+) is the opener has KQ and the other one has AJ or something, but you still would have the most equity even if you weren't a favorite to win the hand.

I think it would take pretty extreme conditions to make folding correct. If it was bubble and you KNEW that they were tight and so it was pretty likley that one of them had QQ+

Top two pay, Not sure what stacks were, but I was about tie with the big stack and both small stacks shoved. Blinds were like 300/600, I had enough blinds to wait till' I did the shoving.

Reading the posts and talking to more experienced players, I see that I should have shoved. I was just close enough to the money that even if one small stack doubled, he wasn't enough of a threat to worry about bubbling if I wasn't the one doubling him up. I was just 10000000% sure someone had aces. Well, I was wrong.

Thanks for all your help, guys.

you went with a read and were dead wrong, that does not mean it was a mistake but if a thinking player is at the table then he probably can manipulate you fairly well..but i would guess your three remaining opponents were definatly inferior players to you so your gonna just naturally beat them most of the time anyway.

as long as your reason for folding is that you genuinely felt AA KK or QQ was out then it is fine, but if your reason for it is to let someone else knock a player out for you then thats a mistake, if you think you got the best hand it dont matter you just gotta play a 3 way allin.

you went with a read and were dead wrong, that does not mean it was a mistake but if a thinking player is at the table then he probably can manipulate you fairly well..but i would guess your three remaining opponents were definatly inferior players to you so your gonna just naturally beat them most of the time anyway.

as long as your reason for folding is that you genuinely felt AA KK or QQ was out then it is fine, but if your reason for it is to let someone else knock a player out for you then thats a mistake, if you think you got the best hand it dont matter you just gotta play a 3 way allin.

I don't entirely agree with this. The first part, I do like the message; it is good that he's thinking and in general, being wrong about a decision in one spot does not automatically mean that you were wrong about the read, that I do firmly believe. However, if your entire read was wrong, that's a mistake, because it likely means you were thinking wrong somewhere down the line about the situation. By your logic, you're saying that if he felt a 2bb reshove btn vs sb had a range from any one of them of only QQ+ then it's ok, but the fact is, it's so rarely the case, and he doesn't really claim to have great reads given the stacks to confirm this, it just seems as though he thinks a shove and a call = a huge pair only and always....live players mentality It just doesn't damage you to call and lose here, and you're so often ahead by a nice margin while having not much to risk, and also not really changing your spot on the bubble a ton cause you don't have to invest much at all with such a nice hand.

edit: in short, with some spots you can say that someone showing up with a different hand doesn't mean that you were wrong, but in this spot, it does because his read is 100% QQ+, and we've disproved that, so somewhere, there's something to learn here, and going on perfect or imperfect information with what we know, it wouldn't change the line before v. after.

I don't entirely agree with this. The first part, I do like the message; it is good that he's thinking and in general, being wrong about a decision in one spot does not automatically mean that you were wrong about the read, that I do firmly believe. However, if your entire read was wrong, that's a mistake, because it likely means you were thinking wrong somewhere down the line about the situation. By your logic, you're saying that if he felt a 2bb reshove btn vs sb had a range from any one of them of only QQ+ then it's ok, but the fact is, it's so rarely the case, and he doesn't really claim to have great reads given the stacks to confirm this, it just seems as though he thinks a shove and a call = a huge pair only and always....live players mentality It just doesn't damage you to call and lose here, and you're so often ahead by a nice margin while having not much to risk, and also not really changing your spot on the bubble a ton cause you don't have to invest much at all with such a nice hand.

edit: in short, with some spots you can say that someone showing up with a different hand doesn't mean that you were wrong, but in this spot, it does because his read is 100% QQ+, and we've disproved that, so somewhere, there's something to learn here, and going on perfect or imperfect information with what we know, it wouldn't change the line before v. after.

The BB (second shove/call) was playing super tight the whole night, partially the reason why he was losing. He didn't get many good hands and any time he did have any kind of hand, it was usually pretty easy to fold. His call to the all in was superlightningfast as if he knew he had every hand beat and just wanted to double up. I don't know if he did that to get me to fold and to look strong, or just because he was anxious to get two high cards after a while, but it got me to fold. The first shove, I was going to call. Not when the second tight player instacalls. But again, I was wrong. I'm new to trying to read any way. I've got the math and plays down enough to play card room tourneys that have enough fish to fill a small tank with confidence. Reading now is the different part and I have no idea where to begin. I just pay attention to bet sizing for a start.

im not trying to rail into you, making a mistakes is part of learning, was just speaking to his comment

im not trying to rail into you, making a mistakes is part of learning, was just speaking to his comment

Oh, I know. Just giving a little more reason behind my fold, what my thoughts were.

And thanks for your comments/help.