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Wow, three weeks back on Pokerstars and its like being thrown back into some long dead nightmare where I watch players with a sh*tload of experience behind them make what I would class as incredibly poor plays and get paid off with them time and again. Anyway, I dont for the life of me understand how this is in any way a positive EV play, especially in an MTT where chips are finite. The villain in question is "uaredead lol" who according to OPR has well over a million dollars in prize money on Pokerstars so its probably incredulous of me to call him out on it but here you go:

Poker Stars $4.00+$0.40 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t300/t600 Blinds + t70 - 8 players - View hand 1859162
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

MP1: t52893 M = 36.23
MP2: t35525 M = 24.33
CO: t8736 M = 5.98
Hero (BTN): t12512 M = 8.57
SB: t41530 M = 28.45
BB: t7308 M = 5.01
UTG: t44514 M = 30.49
UTG+1: t16214 M = 11.11

Pre Flop: (t1460) Hero is BTN with K Q
3 folds, MP2 raises to t1200, 1 fold, Hero raises to t12442 all in, SB raises to t23684, 2 folds

Flop: (t27244) T Q 7 (2 players - 1 is all in)

Turn: (t27244) 2 (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: (t27244) 8 (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: t27244
Hero shows K Q (a pair of Queens)
SB shows 7 7 (three of a kind, Sevens)
SB wins t27244





Notes on the hand, the initial raiser had been min raising every hand the opportunity presented itself for him to open, I had played precisely one hand since the villain sit at the table (approx 30mins) and it was an all in shove with AK, so possibly he thought Id be playing a similar hand but I cant see how he could make such a assumption with such little information. My main query here is WHY THE 4 BET? To push the original raiser off the hand? If so, how can he be so confident that his 77 is holding up against OR's range, considering another player has already committed to showdown with an all in? My point is, I dont understand the logic in this, but a massively successful player has pulled it off and succeeded, leaving me scratching my head whilst heading for the felt. I would like to throw it open to you guys, and would appreciate your thoughts on if it was a good move or bad move, how you would have played the hand in both my shoes and the villains, and of course if you share the belief that Pokerstars in somehow run on an engine of witchcraft and tears.

His play is pretty good

It's a $4.4 donkament. He probably busted it on purpose so he could go out for dinner or whatevs. It's not like I haven't done that before.

But seriously, the play with 77 is super standard.

rage post much, and seriously calling with KQ here is horrible

rage post much, and seriously calling with KQ here is horrible

He's 3 bet jamming vs a min open with about 20 BB's, not calling a shove.
What do you think would be better in this spot? Do you 3 bet and if so what's your sizing?

Keep in mind he is playing this for the TLB's so he'll take a lot more thin spots. This hand isn't really "standard" on his end at all and is very very razor super living on the edge thin.

But you are headed too far down the other direction. Instead of being so angry, try to think about what assumptions he is making that would make his play okay. Try to think of ranges as well. (fwiw I think his play is pretty bad. A lot of mass grinders do bad stuff like this a lot though).

It's a $4.4 donkament. He probably busted it on purpose so he could go out for dinner or whatevs. It's not like I haven't done that before.

But seriously, the play with 77 is super standard.

How can this be super standard? Whats hero's perceived range for shoving in this spot?

From btn at 10BB with ante i would shove around 60% when folded to me,hero has 20BBso it could be less but 77 is easy call even when btn shoves 30%.
.Personally i wouldnt rejam after mp2 raise cause it looks like inducing smaller stack to reshove.99+,AQ maybe with 20BB.even if SBfolded i bet mp2 calls many times with strong hand and you flip in best scenario.

I made simulation in sngwiz with some assumptions.Mp2 opens 25% hands and calls us with 12% IF SB folds.If Sb pushes mp2 calls with 3% hands(JJ+,AK+).
Small blind calls with 7,5%, BB calls with 10%
Profitable range is 55,AJ,ATs,KQs.

Sometimes both players make good decision but it doesnt mean they both gonna be rewarded for that immediately.

Also his profitable calling range is 66,AJ,ATs assuming btn is really tigh (20%).
If mp2 folds KQo from button is unexploitable shove.

his iso shove is kinda standard...

Can someone show #s proving the 77 shove is profitable? I don't think it is a very good play.

That said, you should never be afraid to 'call out' a good player for what you think is a bad play. That is how you learn.

Still, you need to have a better attitude if you want to improve.

Can someone show #s proving the 77 shove is profitable? I don't think it is a very good play.

I am too lazy to do the calc but as uglish says SngWiz will handl it. I've edited it so the SB is the main player and I think it does come out reasonable if the Villain had some reads on the players.
http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff478/GoldMetal/SB77Shove.jpg

OK, it's very close and I think if the ranges were more standard PStove style than the Ax top heavy Wiz style then with even these ranges it would be -ve.
But I was basically showing the break-even ranges and it seems the MP2 player could be pretty wide opening and still be very tight calling two all-ins. If I increase the MP2 open to 30% the DiffC is 550.
If I keep the MP2 on 25% but widen the Btn range to 25% it goes to +700.

According to the original notes Villain should really expect a tight Btn so if I put Btn on 15% it would require a 35% open from MP2 to break even, it's -ve500 if MP2 is 25%.

If the V. thinks that the Btn is reacting to the very common min opens from MP2 it's a pretty close but good move imo, but overall it seems borderline. This is totally ignoring any icm or edge so it does look razor thin but I wouldn't go as far as saying it was a quite bad play unless you can expect a Btn range tighter than the 15%.

His iso was a better play than your shove with KQo imo.

His iso was a better play than your shove with KQo imo.

I would say the KQ shove looks like a pretty good move given the current reads, the V. shove is a lot closer without a good read of the Btn, it perhaps is a clever move against a reg on the Btn.

I would say the KQ shove looks like a pretty good move given the current reads, the V. shove is a lot closer without a good read of the Btn, it perhaps is a clever move against a reg on the Btn.

I agree the KQ shove is fine, he is caught up with how bad the SB play was, and I was just making a comparative point.

By far the most important thing to take away from this thread (to those who are lurking) is that OP's attitude/mindset is really poisonous and deleterious to growing as a poker player.