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Hi Guys

I'm quite new to the forum and have only been playing seriously for the last few months or so. My game of choice at the moment is the 45 man (or person) SNGs as I have found that I prefer the MTT games over the STTs.

I wanted to post a coupe of hands that I've played recently for a bit of feedback and would really welcome any comments however critical they may be.

The first hand was from when the tourney was down to 15 players. I am in the BB and as you can see I call off a BTN open with pockets 3s. The guy was obviously a reg (PS Supernova no less) and was open shoving CO, BTN and most SB without fail for each of the last three or four orbits.

Irrespective of post game ICM calcs etc.but in game is this a call?

Poker Stars $3.19+$0.31 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t200/t400 Blinds + t25 - 7 players - View hand 1842490
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

SB: t10556 M = 13.62
Hero (BB): t4217 M = 5.44
UTG: t1803 M = 2.33
UTG+1: t10166 M = 13.12
MP: t4070 M = 5.25
CO: t2847 M = 3.67
BTN: t3827 M = 4.94

Pre Flop: (t775) Hero is BB with 3 3
4 folds, BTN raises to t3802 all in, 1 fold, Hero calls t3402

Flop: (t7979) 6 7 J (2 players - 1 is all in)

Turn: (t7979) J (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: (t7979) Q (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: t7979
Hero shows 3 3 (two pair, Jacks and Threes)
BTN shows T 7 (two pair, Jacks and Sevens)
BTN wins t7979

The second hand was the final table, perhaps even the first hand once we got moved. I opened with AKo to 2.5x and my plan was to call off any shove from the smaller size stacks from the BTN through to SB. I did not expect a shove from the big stack but nevertheless I got one.

It wasn't an insta-call as I had no reads on him whatsoever but given the situation and the potential loss of tournament equity what are your thoughts on the (eventual) call.

Poker Stars $3.19+$0.31 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t300/t600 Blinds + t50 - 9 players - View hand 1842497
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

UTG: t5040 M = 3.73
UTG+1: t2575 M = 1.91
UTG+2: t8768 M = 6.49
MP1: t9396 M = 6.96
Hero (MP2): t13143 M = 9.74
CO: t14198 M = 10.52
BTN: t3954 M = 2.93
SB: t4731 M = 3.50
BB: t5695 M = 4.22

Pre Flop: (t1350) Hero is MP2 with A K
4 folds, Hero raises to t1500, CO raises to t14148 all in, 3 folds, Hero calls t11593 all in

Flop: (t27536) 9 6 2 (2 players - 2 are all in)

Turn: (t27536) 4 (2 players - 2 are all in)

River: (t27536) 9 (2 players - 2 are all in)

Final Pot: t27536
Hero shows A K (a pair of Nines)
CO shows Q A (a pair of Nines - lower kicker)
Hero wins t27536

1st hand I would probably fold 33, I think you are ahead of his range for sure, but not by much, and you have to overvalue your chips a bit getting that close to the final table. Tough spot, but all in all you have to think about your tournament life. Everyone looks pretty shortstacked, so even though your M is 5.4 you have to compare it to the relative stacks at the table and you are doing fine. I'm sure a lot of people are fine calling here, and that's probably ok. Problem is, even if he's shoving 70% of hands you are still 50/50. Some people might call here, I don't usually. If you had less chips then I instacall. If it does fold to you that's an easy shove, of course.

EDIT: NM you only have 3792 left after posting, you have to call.

2nd hand you have to call, but I usually just open ship it since a lot of times worse A's call me from the shortstacks.

The first, as not a final table is close to a chip value problem. You have to call about 3400 for a final pot of ~8000. So the chip break even equity is: call size/ total pot = 3400/8000 = 42%.
It is quite close but a call. You don't have a great deal of chips so a bit of a gamble hand at this point is fine, if you win you get a reasonable stack and you are a bit better than 42%.

In the 2nd, you are only worried by the CO, I don't mind the min+ bet and I think it actually becomes a very close fold after the CO push. With the other smallish stacks this is the safest approach.
I prefer the open push line, you don't want to induce here just stay safe, AKo is too dangerous. With the presence of small stacks you want to try to avoid confrontation with the other big stack.

Thanks for the replies guys, very much appreciated. Both spots were close situations in game.

As I mentioned in the original post I was not expecting the CO to shove over me in spot number 2 and in future I'll probably adjust my line and just open shove and if anyone fancies their chances then great.

Out of interest does anyone have any comment on the CO over shove given that we are the two big our stacks at the table?

Out of interest does anyone have any comment on the CO over shove given that we are the two big our stacks at the table?

It's quite a gutsy move but you would need to have a good read on the other player to make it payoff, and a levelling game against good regs. Being chip leader with some small stacks I would usually wait for a safer spot. This CO player is also in a good seat, the next sized stack directly to the left, you have a bad seat (more incentive to take the call - but if against good competition I would fold - very close though).
To make it a good move V. would need you to be opening over 25% here and be suitably tight calling (QQ+,AK). I don't think you find that many players folding JJ. If your calling range widens to 5% it is still bad if you 35% open. It's a good hand to play about with in wiz. (although the hand ranges are not quite flexible enough, more mid to high pair hands call before the AJs type.)

You should have had a really easy time after this . A massive stack and perhaps it is only the next hand where it might be ok to fold (as the smallest stack might call in the BB, still go v wide though) after this everyone else should fold to any aggro from you, the two next sized stacks are to your immediate left so a great spot (another reason to possibly call the CO push, close but still a fold in my book)

No don't open push AK imo for 20BB, thats horrible it dicourages action and we want people to be spazz shoving over our opens here to some extent.

We have a comfortable-ish stack here but idk how we could fold AK here to a 20BB shove without reads of him being very tight. It's for sure +Cev, and tbh with a lot the stacks where they are it's not like we could easy steal our way to winning it. With so many chips stacks around 10BB, its honestly making me not want to be overly careful here. It's still a shocking crap shoot imo. with lots of people going to be pushing somewhat wide rarely our hands ever won without showdown unless taking it pre, so really 20BB is basically handcuffed to be playing very straight forward anyways its not like we can fold and still have a massive amount of play left and an ability to use any edge we have that much.

base are you just worried about getting peeled by small stacks? idk why we would open push here with someone left in the hand that can cripple us.

This what I really like about this game - very rarely black or white just differing shades of grey!

No don't open push AK imo for 20BB, thats horrible it dicourages action and we want people to be spazz shoving over our opens here to some extent.

I don't think open shoving is bad here, it is usually but imo you do not want to induce here and in this position the open shove starts to make sense.

We have a comfortable-ish stack here but idk how we could fold AK here to a 20BB shove without reads of him being very tight. It's for sure +Cev, and tbh with a lot the stacks where they are it's not like we could easy steal our way to winning it. With so many chips stacks around 10BB, its honestly making me not want to be overly careful here. It's still a shocking crap shoot imo. with lots of people going to be pushing somewhat wide rarely our hands ever won without showdown unless taking it pre, so really 20BB is basically handcuffed to be playing very straight forward anyways its not like we can fold and still have a massive amount of play left and an ability to use any edge we have that much.

base are you just worried about getting peeled by small stacks? idk why we would open push here with someone left in the hand that can cripple us.

I actually think opening small and folding to a shove is fine against most types, - here we have no information and the shove is +ev and likely to be as good a move as any. Even if against an aggro player that re-shoves with 60% of hands it is only about even icm wise. If the stack sizes were more balanced open calling would be the best shot imo.
I have tried this in SnGWiz, to get the calculation for calling the shove you have to modify the hand by placing the Hero in the BB and having the CO push into a higher blind. You can do the same calc by hand with an ICM calculator but this approach is faster. Below is a link to the result - nb: the BB is now the Hero and the CO pushes, and the blinds are bigger.
The straightforward AKo push with reasonable ranges comes out with a diff of about 0.25 to 0.4%
If we raise and are faced by a CO shove we should fold AKo and call with KK+ for good ICM if the CO was re-shoving 10% (AT+, 55), it is much worse if tighter and always neg ev. Calling with AKo is -2.75% and this is huge here. It is true that 90% of the time the CO does not shove so we gain by this but the point is you don't want to induce hands like AT as you also pull in mid and low pairs and KQs etc, when there is no need.

http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff478/GoldMetal/AkoShoveWiz.jpg
I have moved Hero to the BB position and set the blinds to 800/1600 +75, this is bigger than the original raise of 1500 but this actually makes calling better and even so it's nearly -3.0%

I think this is an interesting hand to analyse - and I might have this wrong but imo inducing in this position is a mistake even if against very loose aggro types, usually the ideal target. I would say you should be flexible and at times shoving 20bbs can make sense (but it is rare).
Is pushing AKo better than raise/folding? You have to do more of an EV calc, and factor in the CO fold ev, to see if it beats the 0.25 to 0.4% from the straight shove. My guess is vs a random it's about the same and in this case raise/folding seems a safer hence better move with probably tight players, against regs that might play back the push will be better.

Raise/folding AK? Huh? I'm confused. If we are raise/folding AK, what range of hands are we raise calling with???? QQ+? You have one guy in the CO to worry about, raising to 1500 (2.5x) is going to induce a wide, strong range to shove on you from the CO, and sure it is going to include all worse aces that you dominate, but also all PP that have you slightly beat pre-flop. It is super profitable for the CO to jam such a wide range against us if we are raise/folding that tight. Even if he flats us I feel like AK often leads down the dark tunnel of missing flops then having to fold to flop over shoves. If you are raising and looking to play a pot here, it is only against the CO, where you are out of position, against a similar size stack etc etc. And your bubble factor vs. the other big stack is so high, that he HAS to fold a wide range against us here and is only going to call with a super tight range.

The small stacks in general are going to shove and call a shove with the same range, but conversely have a slightly tighter range against our standard open when they over shove. Open shoving looks weak, raising looks stronger, and because of this our shove gets called by a wider, worse range and our raise gets over-shoved by a range we are flipping with. So inducing here is just asking for a coin flip. They aren't shoving QJs here after we open for 2.5x, they are shoving worse aces and PP and folding the rest. But when we shove they ARE going to call off with A10s, QJs, 33+ etc etc because they are going to be hard pressed to see better hands. You have to funnel their options into a range where you are crushing them and you can't do that by raising and expecting them to 3-bet you light.

You do not want to coin flip against those stacks, you have absolutely nothing to gain. You want to let them go at each other and protect your stack. If you run this setup through a Nash Equilibrium calculator you'll find that you should be open shoving as low as K2s here(34.2% of hands), and the SB should be shoving over your standard 2.5x open 82.5% of the time.

Here is the calcuation:
http://www.holdemresources.net/hr/sngs/icmcalculator.html?action=calculate&bb=600&sb=300&ante=50&structure=0.5%2C0.3%2C+.2&s1=4731&s2=5695&s3=5040&s4=2575&s5=8768&s6=9396&s7=13143&s8=14198&s9=3954

Regardless, if you are planning on raise/folding AK, you should probably just fold it preflop. Your equity loss by actually getting called and losing to one of the "small stacks" is going to be a loss of 30-43% of your stack. That is NOT an acceptable percentage to be inducing with AK. Open shove AK here, or just fold it. Which means open shove it

Thanks very much for the analysis. In game the intention was very much to induce an over shove from one of the shorter stacks from the BTN - BB rather than the CO.

FWIW AKo was the bottom of my calling range in this specific situation but I would have probably also made the call with JJ+ in game.

Probably need to break out the SnGWiz a bit more!

"But when we shove they ARE going to call off with A10s, QJs, 33+ etc etc because they are going to be hard pressed to see better hands. You have to funnel their options into a range where you are crushing them and you can't do that by raising and expecting them to 3-bet you light."

On what plannet do people call a wider range than they Reshove? Shoving 20bbs expecting to be called by qj aj more often than your reshoved On by these hands when u open IMO is pretty bad. I raise induce here 100% it's much more likely that you will be Reshove on by the big stack given the pressure he can put on you given your stack size. Raise folding to me is way too nitty. If your playing like this then I bet your the sort of player that gets run over on the bubble. I'd say all hands above are a call. There's a million textbooks and vids telling u that u can profitably Reshove 20 bbs on an open, but few telling u to call 10-20bbs with qjs from a mp jam.


Btw I don't grind sng so I'm only considerin chip ev not Icm considerations

Btw I don't grind sng so I'm only considerin chip ev not Icm considerations

Only considering chip ev doesn't work in tournaments. If you aren't considering ICM, you are missing half of the discussion. When you shove preflop you reduce his calling range, when you just open 3x you widen his shoving range which includes a lot of hands with an edge on AKo. Considering the bubble factor, and the fact he has you covered it is correct to think about folding even AKo here. Why put yourself into this position? I guess I don't subscribe to inducing bigger stacks to shove over our AKo because I value my tournament life. I always subscribe to smaller stacks doing so however, so the argument is really who we are looking to call off against?

Do we want to call off against a stack that covers us, or against stacks we cover. AKo is, just A-high after all.

You are saying that people re-shove a tighter range than they call off with, and with an M of <4, 4 and 5 I think that is patently false. When you open for 1500 with 11593 behind and the SB has QJs/Ax do you think he's just going to call OOP or shove QJs/Ax and think he has FE against all the random Ax hands you are open raising here? You are never folding with any two cards when the BTN shoves just 2400 more making the pot 6500 giving you 2.5:1 on your call. He's suicidal if he does that. However, when you shove you need to take the total of your hand equity, plus the fold equity, plus the calls you will get from worse aces, plus the bubble factor/tournament factor against the CO, and roll all these up into a ball then evaluate.

You have 20BB, you don't have 40BB, you don't have room to make sick plays here post flop against those stacks. When any of them flat your 1500 and shove flop when no A/K falls you are again in another tough position. So now you have to worry about the CO 3bet preflop, and any of the blinds shoving flop when blanks fall. Why make things so hard on yourself? When they flat and an A or K falls do you think they are paying you off after a pre-flop raise? No. So you are in a position where you are raising pre flop, having to potentially call an all-in from the CO for your whole stack, and on the flop when an A falls PRAYING someone has a worse A, doesn't out flop you, or shoves a non-A/K flop that you then have to fold. That sounds "pretty bad" to me.

So where do we earn equity with AK pre-flop in this scenario if we open to 3x? Only when we get re-shoved by Ax pre-flop. Ax likes to open shove pre, but not shove over a 3x open when someone has them covered right? So the chances of that spot decrease at least as much with a 3x open as with an open shove. Why even bother letting the CO shove 44? He's folding that to a preflop all-in against you. So instead of giving him a shove range of like AJs+, 33-KK that you are calling off with AKo, you are giving him a shove range of AQo+, 88+ which is not equity you need to give up. Why do you want him re shoving your AKo with 33+? When he wakes up with a small PP here you need the bubble/tournament factor to get him to fold since you don't want to flip (since AKo is actually behind even 22), and instead you are giving him FE, letting him bully the short stacks who might have called you with worse, and making you call off with AT BEST a flip. He plays perfect by shoving a huge range against you in that spot, and you are stuck with calling off AKo. That's just terrible all around.

You simply cannot discount the bubble factor in your decision, when you open a hand as strong as AKo with a big stack behind you, sure it's easy to say you are "inducing" here, but who in their right mind wants to induce a pre flop all-in against the only guy at the table with a stack that can walk you? If you remove the CO from the discussion then sure, you are baiting the BTN, SB, and BB into a re shove, but that's not the case here. We are trying to remove the big stack from the equation or make him call with worse or a flip and are focusing on the small stacks behind him. I've never understood why people are so happy to call off with AK for their whole stack, you have nothing but A-high. This only makes sense when you have position and can call an open shove from another player where your AKo has his range beat. Your only concern with such a strong, unmade hand pre-flop is to get past the CO and get to the blinds and if they all fold and you pick up 1350 you just added 10% to your stack which is again a great result.

There's a million textbooks and vids telling u that u can profitably Reshove 20 bbs on an open, but few telling u to call 10-20bbs with qjs from a mp jam.

BTN/SB/BB - 7/8/9BB, not 10-20. If you remove the CO from this hand it's a totally different discussion where what you are saying makes sense, inducing shoves by the small stacks with AKo. But only due to the CO you have to adjust your play.

Run it in SitNGo Wizard, you'll see it's an easy shove.

i got schooled... looks like i need to learn to play sngs

nice post. good cohesive argument ty

I've never understood why people are so happy to call off with AK for their whole stack, you have nothing but A-high.

Well thats not tottally true.Ako is usualy snap call cause other players like to shove aces thus you dominate them really bad.Especially randoms prefer to shove A5o over lest say 33 making Ako even more valuable. We cant also call Ako bad hand cause it have overall stable ans strong equity agaisnt more typical ranges.Yes you are small underdog against all pairs (and big against KK and AA) but you still have ok equity