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Don't have the hand history with me, but this type of hand has been bugging me.

We are 8-handed at 20-40. MP opens to 120 and it folds to us in the SB with KK. MP has doubled up (3000), we are at starting stack (1500). I don't recall any strange or bad play from MP, so he doubled up on a standard hand (would have to review the HH again). The obvious play is to reraise, and we do so, to 325. MP calls.

Flop comes AQ4 with 2 clubs. The pot is 690 and we have 1175 left. What do we do? If we CB in my mind we are committed, since we'll bet something like 400, which means we'll have put in half our stack in the hand, so folding after being raised all-in or check folding the turn if the CB is just called seems terribad. But if we CB here this early against a normal opponent on a board like this, are we ever getting called by worse? Flush draws will fold, good aces will call, sets will call, 2 pairs will call. We may be able to fold some better hands (a weak ace? KQ?) but they're less likely than the other hands MP could hold. So I'm not so comfortable with a CB here, it seems we don't get it in good enough often enough.

On the other hand, can we really check-fold KK because an A came on the board? Seems very weak to me. We won't be against Ax all the time. But right now we are losing against AA, AK, AQ, QQ, 44, all of which are part of MP's range. MP could have smaller pairs, but you'd expect him to fold all of them against a CB here, which is the correct play for MP.

So how do we get value on this hand? How do we not value-town ourselves by committing with a CB OOP which won't be called by worse and won't fold out better? Do we prefer just shoving preflop for 13x the bet we face, and only get called by better or picking up 160 chips?

If MP was a loose player or some other type of fish, it would be an easy play either preflop or post. But against a standard player, what kind of line do we like?

I don't see anything wrong with cbetting / folding - we still have an ok stack size after. Maybe a smaller cbet (250 - 300?) would accomplish what we are looking for because you are right, worse is not calling. I don't think that this is exploitable because it won't come up that often with the same players.
I don't think c/folding is great because you are still giving up too easily on a good hand and the table will descend on you like vultures.

Would like to see more comments on this all too common spot

Thanks for the thoughts. I had hoped this would generate more discussion. I don't know what to make of only 1 reply to this, when other posts (such as QQ on 76Q rainbow board on the 1st hand) get many more replies. Does everyone else think this is a stupid question not worth replying to?

Guess I'll keep thinking on it and trying to search for similar hands on 2+2 then.

I dont know about the first hand but on that QQ on the 76Q rainbow id have to say cbetting would be correct. Seriously though on the hand type in question I think cbet folding would be correct. In my experiance a reg or non donkish player who flats in this spot will show up w/ AK or AQ. A bad player is going to show up w/ a random ace. I think we only have TT/JJ and maybe KQ beat. I think for him to flat w/ KQ with those hands means he has holes in his game. I think cbet folding is optimal,check folding is next plausible, and saying fuck the world and stacking off is the worst u can do.

Thanks for the thoughts. I had hoped this would generate more discussion. I don't know what to make of only 1 reply to this, when other posts (such as QQ on 76Q rainbow board on the 1st hand) get many more replies.

Therein lies the problem imo. While I think you're a really good contributor on this forum not to mention you know your stuff above and beyond the majority of people on here, you're often a little harsh on people's contributions, especially the new posters who are just after a bit of help, even if you don't think you are being. Maybe all these people are not replying in protest?

Please don't take this the wrong way, not trying to get your back up, just an observation - maybe it just comes across like that in typed form I dunno

sorry, no hand history was the reason I didn't replied.

It's a tough spot but I would prefer to make a smallish Cbet here just as I would do with my good aces (with a good ace I want to be able to shove the turn and at the same time I would like to suck those small aces in). . so small cbet/folding seems fine to me.

What do we accomplish with a cbet? = We don't get bluffed off the best hand and in a way lose the minimum against an ace when we bet a small amount.
Only value in the bet is if he's bad and has KQ or QJ and decideds to get stubborn because he flopped a pair but that's obviously a rare occasion.

What about check/calling and check/folding? Does he stab with his lower pocket pairs on this flop when when checked to? Does he bet a queen (KQ,QJ) for 'value' atleast in his mind? What about all his other hands with gutters or nothing at all if he has those in his range?
Obviously read depended and you know the best in this case.

We may be able to fold some better hands (a weak ace? KQ?) but they're less likely than the other hands MP could hold.

No one folds an ace here when they flatted preflop... never ever.

I don't think c/folding is great because you are still giving up too easily on a good hand and the table will descend on you like vultures

They'll start betting A high flops in 3-bet pots when checked to in STT's or wtfff?

If i had a good read on my opponent i'd probably check decide but if he was new to me and didn't know about his tendencies i think cbetting 1/3-1/2 pot and folding is pretty good.

I'm not a pro at preflop stuff so I may be off a bit here, but what do you think about 3 betting heavier preflop, with the intention of getting it in with a cbet?

I'm tempted to say, get it in on a non-ace board, but I have to think about this hand more. But based on the ugliness of this stack size at this blind level I'm likely to treat this as a 25/50 blind level and 3bet to 400 or 450.

I think a cbet of 400 or 450 will also let you know where you stand most of the time as many players will get it in after a cbet that is similar in size to the preflop 3 bet. I dunno why that is, but I find you can induce shoves quite simply by repeating the 3bet size on boards that a villain is mostly likely to hit and which requires a somewhat significant investment for the villain.

As far as dealing with the turn and river, I think bet-folding is the way to go. You're left with still an OK stack.

Option II would be fun to try in some capacity: what does everyone think of breaking a 500 chip cbet into 2 barrels?? Severely under-betting the flop with 200 (which kind of balances because you are expected to have an ace at least some times) and firing 300 into the turn, bet-folding at every barrel and then check-folding the river.

EDIT: As far as villains hand range, a set here is less likely because of the ace-high board, and flopping a flush draw is similar odds to flopping a set. Not unlikely, but you can't give him that much credit for a flush draw. More than anything you are against an A, or Q when called and AQ when raised.

Therein lies the problem imo. While I think you're a really good contributor on this forum not to mention you know your stuff above and beyond the majority of people on here, you're often a little harsh on people's contributions, especially the new posters who are just after a bit of help, even if you don't think you are being. Maybe all these people are not replying in protest?

Please don't take this the wrong way, not trying to get your back up, just an observation - maybe it just comes across like that in typed form I dunno

+1 on the part of why people dont respond to this guy.When I saw it was him I almost skipped it. Pretty good post btw but people assume u will insult them when they respond. Anyway take it FWIW
Oh and Velo are u saying 3bet to 450 and a 450 cbet w/ a 1500 stack?
495 is 1/3 of ur stack and that puts u past the commitment threshold.

Thanks for the ideas. I'll try out folding after a smallish cbet. Velo, hadn't thought of your line. If we raise bigger preflop I think we're making a smaller mistake postflop, since we got committed while we were ahead. I would maybe raise to 500-600 and then shove any flop if that would be the line I take. Perhaps cbetting 400 wouldn't be bad either but I don't think I'd be folding to a raise or c/f the turn if I get called. I'd prefer raising a bit smaller and cbetting smaller so I still have a 1/2 stack to play with. At 20/40 with the next level coming, a 500 stack won't go very far.

The 2 barrels sound interesting. Say we raise to 400, we get called, we bet 1/4 pot. Will we get any less folds on a A-high board than cbetting to 500 or so? Probably not. So we may get the same result and be investing a bit less.

Interesting lines to play with, I haven't made my mind up, but I will play around with them.

Joey, corkeye, if I got heated with you at some point, I'm sorry. But if you pay attention to my posts, I think you'll see that the majority of my posts are not like that. If you're going to throw me under the bridge for a small part of my posts, then whatever. I can't go back in time and change what I've posted. If you think I'm a horrible person that doesn't contribute anything, then contact DC staff and ask them to ban me. Otherwise, I'm'a do me and you do you, and if you don't like that then you're perfectly free to never respond to me. Either way it's not what this thread should be about, so PM me instead if you really need to.

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Joey, corkeye, if I got heated with you at some point, I'm sorry. But if you pay attention to my posts, I think you'll see that the majority of my posts are not like that. If you're going to throw me under the bridge for a small part of my posts, then whatever. I can't go back in time and change what I've posted. If you think I'm a horrible person that doesn't contribute anything, then contact DC staff and ask them to ban me. Otherwise, I'm'a do me and you do you, and if you don't like that then you're perfectly free to never respond to me. Either way it's not what this thread should be about, so PM me instead if you really need to.

I think you took what I said out of context dude. I have no problem with you, and I really don't think you're a horrible person at all.

Toker speaking for myself I was just offering food for thought. U are one of the better contributors but people would rather avoid a flame war sometimes.I dont read all of your posts but on a couple of occasions u have flamed my post.I used restraint and let it go.On 2+2 maybe I would respond but on DC that seems silly because of the atmosphere.Anyway dude I know u are passionate and have alot to offer and the fact u apologized (considering I feel u didnt have to) wipes the slate clean. Anyway hope to have more cordial interactions w/ u in the future and respectful constructive critiscism is appreciated.

Along the lines of Velo's thinking I've been into potting this, in other words, making you C bet considerable larger then take it from there. More than likely he'll either fold or PUSH on you but NOT flat call you which makes play from here considerable easier.

3 betting to 450 and cbetting 450 u are commited, no taking it from there.
I have always been told the commitment threshold is 1/3 of ur stack>

Yeah, I've had similar feelings about a commitment threshold, but maybe given that we're still early and have a manageable stack for this level and next level it could be a possible line.

I'm still not sure of anything. Luckily enough there aren't that many uncomfortable spots like this so I guess we won't see this situation that often.