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Is there no ante on Ongame at 200/400?

I can't find a Ongame structure without a 40 ante at 200/400. The handhistories just blow up differently depending on which skin you get them from (different versions...).

I would think this much like midnitetoker does here. This is not a any two spot, because of the bubble and we're tied for last, but this is not a spot to be nit. You have to choose when to make a stand and I'll generally make my stands when I still have fold equity left.

If you think this hand in a vacuum, shoving never makes sense here, but if you think it in a context that has other hands following, shoving starts to make a lot of sense.

I think those defending a fold on the basis of Wiz, saying that this is a huge -EV spot are failing to adjust the SNG Wiz ranges properly.

It's a mistake to only adjust ranges in the graphical portion. You should really adjust ranges in the 'Analysis Details' section below. That section allows you to add a great deal of specificity regarding overcalls, and that section's default is also usually waaaay out of whack with regard to them, causing crazy distortions in your final output, if you don't adjust them.

The image below shows what I think are reasonable ranges adjusted all the way down. This assumes there is a 40 ante as JtX stated there were.

http://vandwellerpoker.com/images/2010-04-30-DC-post-A3-bubble-utg.JPG

Given these ranges, it's an easy shove after the analysis, and my in-game intuition and standard play is to shove this hand and quite a bit worse. I am willing to take an negative edge in the ballpark of -0.75% and maybe even a bit more in some cases.

You shouldn't confuse the the actual EV analysis (accounting for future game states of course) with the disappointment of busting out on the bubble with a bad hand. If it doesn't work out, open another. SNGs are about always choosing your highest EV option (even if it's negative), not necessarily only choosing +EV ones.

If you disagree with the specific ranges, that's a different story, but the main point still stands.

I always hate posting in contentious threads like this because oftentimes a blue tag under an avatar stops all discussion as though the answer came from Zeus on high. These are constructive disagreements and my post is just one's man's thoughts. You should always feel free to see your position to the end if you really truly believe it. Ultimately, you'll convince someone or someone will convince you; either way someone's learning something and that's what these forums are about.

As to the vitriol and snippyness, it's really unnecessary. No matter what someone else posts, you are always free to ignore it and continue to play in the way that makes the most sense to you. It may seem that when someone heatedly contests your opinion they are pronouncing a judgement on "you as a person". That's rarely true. If someone seems like they are coming across that way, give them the benefit of the doubt that it's sometimes hard to generate the right tone of speech in a limited medium of only text.

Got to agree with Rigged on this one. Too -ev to push into 3 other players. From BTN with same stacks push. Another consideration is that the button should be pushing most (not all) of his range here if folded to. This gives a good chance of him being eliminated here. If not and you get bottom range of btn then it is push ATC in SB next.
It worked for you. Nice hand.

I disagree with the bolded part pretty strongly. There are a lot of hands he can fold, just from an immediate ICM perspective and from the view that his nearest competitor is about to take on the BB, is likely to be shoved on, will be getting a good price to call, and has quite a healthy chance of being eliminated.

What is the buy in for this thing?

Van's "shove this hand and quite a bit worse"'s tend to be a bit more applicable at the $65s than the $6.50s.

Range definition has a tendency be a bit more volatile at the lower levels.

I felt like when I was more worried about blinding out than ICM, I was losing money. It seemed like my leak was in exact situations like this. Now I play as I do, which would be folding this hand, and I am getting the best results of my poker career.

Now I play as I do, which would be folding this hand, and I am getting the best results of my poker career.

Results can differ a lot from how good your play is.

Results can differ a lot from how good your play is.

In the short run.

Depending on how the game worked out so far I would probably shove any ace here. I we had 100 more chips (so to be 3rd place) I would fold. But in this situation we have 4 more hands till we get completely blinded out. So in the next 4 hands we're going to be all in anyway. This is a top 20% hand that we have right now. So do that math. What are the chances that we'll get a better hand in the next 4 hands? A little over 50%. But we'll have no FE then. We have a SMALL FE NOW + a 20% hand.

I felt like when I was more worried about blinding out than ICM, I was losing money. It seemed like my leak was in exact situations like this. Now I play as I do, which would be folding this hand, and I am getting the best results of my poker career.

The difference between the "right" and "wrong" plays (if they even exist here) isn't large enough, and these situations don't come up often enough to make a substantial difference in one's results. There's no way playing this situation one way or the other would make a several point ROI difference.

Your game is obviously improving over time, and this can't be the only difference between your play now and your play 6 months ago. Your improving results are from myriad factors, not just playing one situation that comes up once every 15 games differently.

not just playing one situation that comes up once every 15 games differently.

This one play opens up about a billion spots that I am missing. There is probably a spot similar to this in most games. It looks like I have A LOT of work to do. Now that I obviously don't know how to run Wiz, I'm pretty much in the dark....

...my highs last for about a second and than I'm brought back to reality.

Thanks for all posts, really interesting discussion in future I promise to look here more often then 2 times a week.


Buy in is 22$ and blinds are 200/400 with antes 40 ( not sure why not included in hand history )

Especialy interesting is part about adjusting ranges in Analysis Details I will defenitily look into that and use that feature of SngWiz in future. Seems that this tool is even better then I thought.

Before I put this hand into SngWiz I was 100% it is a push and even after that I saw this as a -EV spot I was thinking we have to take it becouse we have only 2-3 hand left to choose and most likely other spots will be even more -EV. As for Blind most players in his position will push very tight and hope I will bust when is my turn to post bb.

Thx again

The extra 160 and the higher amount your BB will cost certainly makes this shove.

I still would fold this in a $10 on FT with no antes.


This is a situation where I find sharkscoping games to be helpful.

Against 3 positive ROI players, I am allot more likely to shove. If there are a couple of steadily loosing players, there is a good chance of a meltdown. And I am more likely to take a pass.