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Was playing day 1 of a £100+£50 game in Edinburgh on Saturday (was the main event of a mini summer festival run by the casino), and this hand occured early on...

Blinds are 100/200 (I have 23k), UTG limps and the guy to my direct right (who I know) limps too, I raise it up to 800 with QQ. It folds round to the UTG limper who makes it 2500 total. The guy to my right folds. I tank for a bit then click it back, make it 4500. UTG looks up at me, asks "do you have AA" before quickly tossing in a call. I think I might be getting levelled at this point and decide to proceed cautiously in the hand. The flop is Js5h6h and he open jams for about 12k. I tank for a good 5 minutes and decide his range in this spot is almost exactly AA/KK/JJ and AKhh. Calling off incorrectly would mean I would have been left with about 7k. I eventually fold. He doesn't show but informs the table he had AKhh, not sure I believe him though.

What do you guys think about this hand?

flat the 2500 preflop>fold>4 bet. I'm conservative with QQ/JJ and I hate to get it all in pre with those hands. He only has JJ/KK/AA, I even lean towards JJ as played. Easy fold.

edit: I guess his shove on that flop makes sense actually with AKs. I still don't think you need to 4 bet QQ though, you do have position.

i think arjunt is close there. I dont mind stacking off with QQ assuming the situation isnt horrible, but i assume his range is somewhat value weighted towards limp back raising utg like that, so by clicking it back with QQ we get him out of the pot a lot of the time when we dominate his pair. plus i would expect him to fire away on none A,K high boards which is great for us we want the weaker parts of his range to be putting in chips for us bc he will fold down to a very narrow range if we attempt to bet into him any more

To me this seems like a very difficult hand to read as it doesn't really make a great deal of sense.
(I am a bit undecided about putting in the extra 2000 preflop, I feel I would want to put in more for value or just see a flop for comfort.)
What would play this way preflop - AA possibly KK after these only the mid pairs start to make sense? Would AKs often limp pre or JJ or QQ? This looks too dangerous a play and then re-raising again seems suspicious, a pair like 77 to TT may if they thought you were stealing and thought they could pressure your AK/AQ.hands or wider hands..
You are looking very strong after the preflop 4 bet so if it was the AA or KK the villain would have possibly have put in more pre or if just calling it would be to trap, expecting a c-bet from you on this flop and with just over a pot size left would be tempted to c/r you. I am beginning to sway toward the mid pair and helped by the extra 7 grand I would call. I think the hands that beat you would be more inclinded to raise small or c/r this flop than donk push. You need about 1/3rd of the equity to call for chip break even and I think you have more (although I couldn't really give a believable range). The donk push from AhKh does make sense but I would discount this due to not matching the earlier story well.

If he has AA pre, the shove makes sense. If he has KK pre, the shove doesn't make sense, he's already asked if you have AA, and you've shown enough strength that you probably do, so I don't put him on open shoving KK. I think most players who are 4-bet OOP with KK are looking to check for information, and call off most shoves, but open shoving after being 4-bet OOP? Pretty rare, I would like to hear opinions to the contrary. I also think he's going to get it in pre with KK. He could put you on the rare AK if he has KK, but I think your range is so heavily weighted towards AA and QQ that unless you gave some visible tell (which I think is looking more and more likely in this scenario) that's pretty uncommon.

>>> I'm wondering for my own edification what you said when he asked "Do you have AA?" I do that sometimes live when I have AA, but otherwise you may have given some info away depending on what you said so I'm curious.

If he has JJ, given stack sizes and the pot, and his verbal, I think this fits perfectly. I just really don't see KK flatting pre, then shoving the flop as he only beats QQ, and AK exactly.

When he asked I remained quiet and didn't say anything. I was looking him in the eye the whole time he was doing the whole speech play. I sat very still aswell so I don't think I was giving off any obvious tell.

Another important (I think) thing that happened was that he seen me play a pretty interesting hand about 25 minutes before. With 6 limpers (blinds 100/200), I check Q8 in the BB and see a flop of QT6r. I donk bet 900 and get 3 callers. The turn is another Q and again lead out for 1900, only the boy (who I know) to my direct left calls. The river is a 3 and I check to him, he leads out for 4k and I tank fold (he later let me know he had TT) and show the Q. Maybe the fact that the villain in the main hand saw this would make him think he could bully me into making a big laydown, as he knew I was capable of doing this. It's a sidepoint but may be an important one.

The reason I clicked it back was because I was afraid I was behind pre flop and felt I had to 4bet to see where I was in the hand (in hindsight a bigger 4bet would have probably did this better). I'm not sure if this is good or bad thinking. I wasn't in love with my hand when he flatted.

I got the impression it was value-y. Like if he puts me on a range of QQ/KK and AA (which surely he did) surely he doesn't expect me to ever fold a J high two tone flop. I can see him shoving with AKhh, but the only other hands he has there (I think) has to be AA/KK and JJ. I really did think his range was crushing my hand and that is ultimately why I didn't call off.

Later on with blinds at 150/300, I bust against the same guy in a bit of cooler situation. I started the hand with 18k. He raises to 800 in LP, gets one caller and it folds to me in the BB. I again look down at QQ and 3bet to 2500. He flats and the other guy folds. Flop is 456r, he checks, I bet 3600, he raises to 8000 and I jam. He snaps and has 55. I go broke alot here (can fold to the c/r against a really nitty player) but after what happened earlier, I can't think of any reason not to get it in.

The reason I clicked it back was because I was afraid I was behind pre flop and felt I had to 4bet to see where I was in the hand (in hindsight a bigger 4bet would have probably did this better). I'm not sure if this is good or bad thinking. I wasn't in love with my hand when he flatted.

Bet for value, bet as a bluff, or bet to pick up dead money. Never bet to "find out where you are." Didn't work right? Balugawhale has a great book "Easy Game" where he explains this, highly recommend.

Are you thinking about his hand range when he leads and calls your 3bet pre, and then raises you on a 456 board? You are repping a big pair preflop, so unless you have a specific read, what is going to raise you big and call your jam? I'm not sure 88-JJ do, so when you aren't getting called by worse it's generally not a good spot imo. I think you are looking at AA/KK/sets and not even 77 as generally they will flat your flop bet and look to improve on the turn.

I wouldn't mind rrumsey/OMGClayDol's opinion, but I think it's better to bet the flop smaller, like 2600 into the 5300 pot and evaluate. It's not a huge difference, but against the range of hands you are beating like 77-JJ/AK, you are going to get more value when they flat you rather than betting 2/3 pot and making them just fold. I think this is a big epiphany for me that I got from OMGClayDol's videos, when you get into spots like this you have to balance between getting value from all the worse hands that might call you, and keeping the information gates open from the hands that beat you. Bet just enough to make worse hands call, but not enough to keep from getting in over your head when you are raised. When he raises 8k, that's almost a min raise looking to induce (which worked) and I think in the same spot had you bet only 2500ish it gives you more options than feeling like you are pot committed.

I would also raise more preflop personally, you make it 2500 giving him 1700 to earn 3600 or more than 2:1 odds. I would make it 4-5x his raise since I have to play the pot OOP and that will effectively polarize his range better.

arjunt hit the point in first paragraph

idk what he means by bet flop smaller, like if we were checked to or villains line?

I didnt see omgclaydols series (i havent reupped in a little on my membership and probably will soon), but yah from what i sounds like it relates back to the basic maxim of having a plan for the hand and making sure you have a reason to do things. Don't just bet to bet, or raise or any other action. Make sure you know why you are doing it. kinda links back in with first and second paragraph from arjunt.

I like min 4 betting for the most part. It is something i saw ansky do in cash games some and it was awesome to see. raely do you ever really need to 4 bet big imo bc it is almost aways seen as such a strong move, and rarely do you have to worry about people flatting OOP too much. and unless we just butcher a hand, rarely are we do this so wide we get caught on weird flops with only marginal equity.

rumsey I was replying to the situation in the post right above mine, not the original post

yah your 3 bet is fine,could have been bigger but wouldnt change the PTR otf much. getting called puts 5,800 in the pot, your cbet was a little big but whatever it is fine. as to if you can fold to a nit when he c/rs you here its a simple ,matter of constructing a hand range here and using pokerstove on it. he would have to be really nittty clearly but then again what hands is he raise calling with pre that you beat here otf that arent bluffing, and could he ever bluff?