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Poker Stars $2.00+$0.20 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t70000/t140000 Blinds + t17500 - 5 players - View hand 1823473
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UTG: t2983710 M = 10.03
CO: t3099132 M = 10.42
BTN: t346082 M = 1.16
SB: t3011860 M = 10.12
Hero (BB): t1759216 M = 5.91

Pre Flop: (t297500) Hero is BB with 5 5
1 fold, CO raises to t280000, 2 folds, Hero raises to t1741716 all in


I talked this hand over with friends and they said it was a clear shove.

I was wondering if there are ICM considerations with a short stack with just over 2bbs who probably will bust soon or do I just shove any pair? What should be my range for shoving over the opener here?

There was $1,700+ up top and the next one out got $478.

I am really trying to adjust to turbo FT formats.

Thanks for any input.

Any reads on villain in the CO?

If this is a decent reg, he should be opening a huge range from that spot just by looking at the chip dymensions. If he is a reg, he knows you can't call that wide because of the short stack still in the tournament. If it were me I would be raising ATC in his situation

Personally I like getting all my chips in, in this spot vs. a reg (a compentent player) that is. We need a double up so that we can be a contender when its down to 4 handed. Vs. an unknown or nittier player I'd be more then happy to lay it down and look for another spot, even though we don't have much fold equity after we fold this.

All in all this hand is very player dependent. I love the call if you feel this is a reg you can open wide in this spot.

Villian is huge winning reg with 169% ROI over 11000 tournaments. His stats were 23/23 with 3 bet 19 over 54 hands.

I like the shove in that case. well played.

Good luck at the tables sir.

Charette

like chip ev its a shove, but i think icm against someone who will surely call you correctly i assume its a fold without look at any icm calcs, flipping and winning a little dead money seems like nothing considering we pay jump next hand almost 100% the time

+cEV and EV vs. pretty much everyone, especially a decent reg. Calling correctly is actually likely tighter than an average incorrect range. Vs. a thinking player, in ICM situations the shover generally has the advantage because the tax burden if you like is forced upon the guy who has to call.

Yes there is ICM considerations, it means:

a) when you shove and he folds, you gain "less" than you normally would under cEV circumstances
b) when you shove and he calls, and you lose, you lose "more" than you normally would
c) when you shove and he calls, and you win, you gain "less" than you normally would
d) he should call a fair amount tighter than he normally would, especially if/given he is a thinking/winning player.

generally d) makes up for the first 3, and also 55 is usually SO +cEV that it doesn't have to make it for it completely.

calling is probably better than folding too, given such good pot odds, but 55 doesn't play that well postflop and is kind of hard to play oop, get to showdown with the best hand etc.

generally shove > call > fold > 3bet non all in.

Calling has the advantage of lower variance, but still wouldn't for the reasons above. Hands that are +EV to shove like QJs, which flop better, I prefer flatting in general.

I just played around with SNG wizard and it says with an opening range of 23% and a call of 7's+ its a push, call of 6's plus its a fold. ICM wise it is very borderline it seems ( assuming im using sng wizard correctly and this is the first time i have ever used it)

actually payout structure is 50/30/20 i believe so thats probably making us tighter then it should actually be here. i suck with sng wizard

Awesome spot, I think he's folding a lot of the time just because he's faced with going from tied for first to 4th and he's only invested 2BB.

I just played around with SNG wizard and it says with an opening range of 23% and a call of 7's+ its a push, call of 6's plus its a fold. ICM wise it is very borderline it seems ( assuming im using sng wizard correctly and this is the first time i have ever used it)

Lol - you have lost your Wiz virginity. It gets easier

This is a slightly strange hand as the blinds don't quite match to the supplied ones in Wiz.

One of the first things to notice is if you actually copied the hand and pasted it in (works some times, and is easiest to do by following the View Hand link and downloading the 'text' version, can open in notepad and just copy all, then use the past button on Wiz)

The first thing to do after this copy is check/adjust the blinds/structure, Wiz, like the HH formatter, often doesn't do the antes properly, so re-select the blinds antes from the drop down.
In this case as the hand was an MTT select PStars 180 man structure - this will be close(ish) to an MTT one.
Sadly Wiz does not have this exact blind level present. (**) so pick nearest.

Then start putting in your adjustments to the ranges.

**: if you want to get really fancy you can make new structures with any paystructures and blind structures you want.


In this hand I did set up a new structure (easy once you get the hang of it) and put the CO opening 30% and calling 12%, with zero edge it suggests a Hero shove range of 17%(33+ AT+,KQ,KTs+...)

You have to decide on how other future events will have a bearing and here the super short stack does have an effect. If Hero calls and wins Hero can apply lots of future pressure and have a good shot at 1st or lose and get 5th. If the CO is now loose aggro. (the above CO ranges would change) I think the push starts to easily win, else, I would edge to the safety viewpoint and it is close then either way.

Overall, especially with the chance of owning the others if you win the hand I would go for the push here but how you judge the CO is very critical, if you think the CO is folding to the SB but calling you (say CO ranges of 30%/20%) it would be a fold (but very very close). Even with the help of Wiz you still often don't get a clear decision it just helps you to make good one.

Good analyse basemetal,

I still feel that CO is opening way wider in this spot if he is a winning reg like axegrinder has stated. villian is in a great steal spot where he can raise/fold vs. the SB, but is pretty much committed to calling any shove from hero. I think 55 play really well in this spot. Personally id rather risk it, either i get knocked out in 5th (which i dont find to be a big deal after looking at the whole picture)or we become a real contender for 1st place in this tourny.

I also agree with basemetal that this situation is totally player dependent

Good analyse basemetal,

I still feel that CO is opening way wider in this spot if he is a winning reg like axegrinder has stated. villian is in a great steal spot where he can raise/fold vs. the SB, but is pretty much committed to calling any shove from hero. I think 55 play really well in this spot. Personally id rather risk it, either i get knocked out in 5th (which i dont find to be a big deal after looking at the whole picture)or we become a real contender for 1st place in this tourny.

I also agree with basemetal that this situation is totally player dependent

Yep, I did er on the quite cautious side in the Wiz analysis and if

Villian is huge winning reg with 169% ROI over 11000 tournaments. His stats were 23/23 with 3 bet 19 over 54 hands.

169%! phew, this guy is great and doing everything right!.I am not sure what would really be optimal from his/her standpoint against more standard opponents but I would expect a wide raise range. I think it would still be wrong for this player to call the BB too wide. If CO was 60% and 30%, Wiz gives BB/hero a 24% push range, any pair, any Ax KT+.
You can't really expect a super accurate result, just a guide, and Wiz does not allow you to pick different style ranges for eg, more suited less weak Ax hands but it does look like AxeGrinder did push well in this spot.

@ base, problem is this is a 6k person field so idk how to make the structure ( i dont want to put 60-70 blind levels in to do this) kind of just wanted to look at what pay jumps are currently and i couldnt get it to assume we are already ITM and to compensate for the pay jumps

@ base, problem is this is a 6k person field so idk how to make the structure ( i dont want to put 60-70 blind levels in to do this) kind of just wanted to look at what pay jumps are currently and i couldnt get it to assume we are already ITM and to compensate for the pay jumps

I wouldn't worry about the field size too much, the payouts of a 180 seat will be a very decent standin.

edit: if it is just the switch from chip EV to $Ev this is done by clicking the 'Options:' thingie at the top right of the table view, Click on this and select or de-select the chip EV there, it shows up as a tick.

It would be difficult to put in a big field payout structure and you may just gain a touch on accuracy but it is a bit advanced and the improvement is likely to be well within the +/- 'Edge' guessing range for all the other adjustments. You could do one for a 5000 sized field perhaps and once done it is available for later use but it is a bit of a grind.

(I'll explain how to do it below - but if you hang on for a few days I'll try to calculate an ICM shortcut later)

You could do the following:

edit: very sorry about the PStars mention here - I've just remembered that you are sadly not allowed to play on it.
Open a PokerStars tourney Lobby and copy the FT payout % details from the 'info' tab.
As far as ICM goes you only need the FT ones to be accurate, but you do have to give enough of the rest of the non FT players exactly the same % as 10th to cover the extra in the tournament (no need to be exact on these places just so long as none are more than the 10th spot - this should make it a bit easier)

The blinds structure of the 180s should be quite similar, you can use this as the 'copy'

Close PStars and open Wiz.

'Tools | User Defined Structures' 'Add structure', this allows you to copy from an existing one.

Pick Stars 180, this is probably closest.
Put in the top nine places accurately,
then add probably 25 or so more players with the same payout as 10th.


I wrote a Python script a long time ago that can calculate the new structure as players fall away so I should be able to get the FT structure without the need to put in all the extra non-FT ones. I'll try to do it sometime next week, again it's likely to be only a small change from the 180 one so to be honest hardly worth the bother, useful perhaos as an exercise though.

Thank you everyone for such great analysis of this spot.

When I first made the shove, I thought it was totally standard and good.

Overnight, I started thinking about the ICM implications and wasn't so sure.

Thanks to all for your valuable input on this hand.