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I am using HeM and enjoying it. I am just not sure how to understand the difference between the 4B stat and the 4bet range stat.

Can anyone help me making sense of it?

Lets say I hold JJo on the button and UTG+1 open raises 3x big blind. I 3bet him to 10xBB and he now 4 bets me. I look at his stats on a HUD and find that his 4B range and 4B stats are different. Can you tell me why this is and which of the two stats you find most usable?

Hi,
I am using those stats, too. Although I am not quiet sure if my assumption is correct, but I would say 4bet stats are the % when someone does neither fold to a 3bet nor call a 3bet. So lets say his fold to 3bet is 50% and his 4bet stat is 20%, so when someone is 4betting him he is calling 30%...if that makes sence.
About the 4bet range, I think thats the same % as in pokerstove. So when someones 4bet range is 0,9% he is only 4betting AA and KK, asuming he never gets out of line and balances his range, like 4bet bluffing and flatting 3bets with AA or KK.
Would be nice, if someone else can agree or disagree.

As far as I know 4bet % is the percantage one raises a 3bet and 4bet range is 4bet% * opening frequency.
E.g You open the button 50% and got 3bettet 10 times. One time you 4bet so you have a 10% 4bet but only a 5% 4bet range.
Both stats are pretty much useless unless you have a huge sample size aka datamined hands.
Reads and common sense are far more important.
To the hand: A UTG opener is not stacking off with 1010 so JJ=55. Do you think you can ship 55 over a UTG 4bet? If not JJ is a fold too unless you have a read that he is a spewtard who is 4betting all kind of crap. That's why you shouldn't waste it by 3betting in the first place unless you have a read that he is somewhat fishy and likes to flat OOP with weak hands. Than again it's an easy fold because you expect him to flat and not 4bet bluff his weak holdings.

4b is how often he 4bets when he gets 3b. 4b range is what % of preflop hands that is. Ie, if someone opens 20% of hands and 4bets 25%, his 4b range is 5%.

Don't (over)use these stats. 3/4/5betting is very dynamic dependent and hud stats will often not reflect how villain plays against you.

4b is how often he 4bets when he gets 3b. 4b range is what % of preflop hands that is. Ie, if someone opens 20% of hands and 4bets 25%, his 4b range is 5%.

Don't (over)use these stats. 3/4/5betting is very dynamic dependent and hud stats will often not reflect how villain plays against you.

This makes sense to me. But why would one ever use the 4B-range stat then? Do you use that one?

Furthermore I just want to say thank you. So thank you! I have watched the first episode of the thin red line and I feel like I have leaped forward in my poker progress just watching you use the Pop Up and the note system. I used to consider the regulars as one big grey mass, but now I seem them more as individuals with flaws, lines and strengths.

Can you recommend any series that deals with the same topics as you do in the first episode (only saw first and some of 2nd)?

As far as I know 4bet % is the percantage one raises a 3bet and 4bet range is 4bet% * opening frequency.
E.g You open the button 50% and got 3bettet 10 times. One time you 4bet so you have a 10% 4bet but only a 5% 4bet range.
Both stats are pretty much useless unless you have a huge sample size aka datamined hands.
Reads and common sense are far more important.
To the hand: A UTG opener is not stacking off with 1010 so JJ=55. Do you think you can ship 55 over a UTG 4bet? If not JJ is a fold too unless you have a read that he is a spewtard who is 4betting all kind of crap. That's why you shouldn't waste it by 3betting in the first place unless you have a read that he is somewhat fishy and likes to flat OOP with weak hands. Than again it's an easy fold because you expect him to flat and not 4bet bluff his weak holdings.

I don't datamine so I will go with caution. On the other however I feel that the stat is very useful when you are deciding whether to light 3B in pos. or just call for example. Also I like it when my 3B is called. It really helps narrowing someones range if they are 4B maniacs or broaden if if they never 4B.

As for the hand I just thought it up. I like the analysis though.

The stat could be useful if you have datamined hands to give you an idea of what villain's default strategy is. But people generally overuse all stats. It's the big difference between the good regulars and the medeocre rakeback grinders. The good regs think about spots and use reads and image. The medeocre regs just play a way they think is good against the HUD stats of villain. The latter is easier to do when you play more tables. The first is pretty much impossible to do and thus also unlearnable when playing more tables. If your goal is to improve and move up I'd strongly recommend not playing more than 4 tables and only using the HUD as a tool to give you suspicions about someone's play but always try to confirm it as an actual read through observation asap.

I only made 1 theory video but touch upon some more in the rest of my live play videos. I don't know if there are more like it. You'll probably like the first episode of DogIsHeadsUp.

I do like it and I always play four tables

About the 4bet range stats, usually I am using those stats only against shortstacks because it shows you if their 3bet range is pretty wide and they are able to fold to min4bets and if my sample size is bigger
But against some villians the stats are nice too, if you have a huge sample size for someone and you see his 4bet range is 0.5% or 0.9% you get a pretty good idea about his hand range...

About the 4bet range stats, usually I am using those stats only against shortstacks because it shows you if their 3bet range is pretty wide and they are able to fold to min4bets and if my sample size is bigger
But against some villians the stats are nice too, if you have a huge sample size for someone and you see his 4bet range is 0.5% or 0.9% you get a pretty good idea about his hand range...

I would suggest, for NL at least, that you pretty much ignore the 4 bet stats as it very unlikely that you have enough hands to make a decision this way, I would be be more willing to decide on folding/calling/raising by weighing up what other information is available - calling station, aggression factor, likelyhood of tilt etc.
I don't often play cash nl and when I do it is in the micros and in these this stat is pretty useless. In the last 40000 nl full ring hands I have only faced a preflop 4 bet 53 times, I only folded ~15% of times - I suspect the higher games will have a higher frequency but even so it is still llikely to be low.
From the stats even with all these 40000 hands the margin of error comes out as +/- 4.9% so the best statistical guess at my fold rate is 15% +/- 4.9%, this is for a confidence level of 68%, so even so 30+% of times the actual is even wider than this.
If you only had a mere 12000 hands on me and hence only 16 or so faced 4-bet occurences then the margin of error is 15 +/- 9% so with 68% confidence you can expect my fold% to be somewhere between 6% and 24%, any less hands and this stat is only useful in that it will show a mild indication that a player is capable of folding.
It is difficult to get a good knowledge of what a wide range of Hud stats actually mean and probably best concentratiing on a few and only using some of the slower to converge stats as a way of backing up a suspicion and as Grindcore says use plenty of observation.

About the 4bet range stats, usually I am using those stats only against shortstacks because it shows you if their 3bet range is pretty wide and they are able to fold to min4bets and if my sample size is bigger
But against some villians the stats are nice too, if you have a huge sample size for someone and you see his 4bet range is 0.5% or 0.9% you get a pretty good idea about his hand range...

Yeah against shortstacks with datamined hands is probably the best usage of this stat as shorties tend to play from a sheet of paper and not really adjust much (though they have improved since the min BIs have been increased to 35bbs on a lot of sites).

I would suggest, for NL at least, that you pretty much ignore the 4 bet stats as it very unlikely that you have enough hands to make a decision this way, I would be be more willing to decide on folding/calling/raising by weighing up what other information is available - calling station, aggression factor, likelyhood of tilt etc.
I don't often play cash nl and when I do it is in the micros and in these this stat is pretty useless. In the last 40000 nl full ring hands I have only faced a preflop 4 bet 53 times, I only folded ~15% of times - I suspect the higher games will have a higher frequency but even so it is still llikely to be low.
From the stats even with all these 40000 hands the margin of error comes out as +/- 4.9% so the best statistical guess at my fold rate is 15% +/- 4.9%, this is for a confidence level of 68%, so even so 30+% of times the actual is even wider than this.
If you only had a mere 12000 hands on me and hence only 16 or so faced 4-bet occurences then the margin of error is 15 +/- 9% so with 68% confidence you can expect my fold% to be somewhere between 6% and 24%, any less hands and this stat is only useful in that it will show a mild indication that a player is capable of folding.
It is difficult to get a good knowledge of what a wide range of Hud stats actually mean and probably best concentratiing on a few and only using some of the slower to converge stats as a way of backing up a suspicion and as Grindcore says use plenty of observation.

Good analyses! However after 12k hands I'm pretty sure I'd never ever 4bet bluff you based on that stat alone so it's actually usefull. Furthermore I'd look to ur 3bet percantage, go through HH and filter for those hands. This way I can get a nice read how you construct your ranges.

Good analyses! However after 12k hands I'm pretty sure I'd never ever 4bet bluff you based on that stat alone so it's actually usefull. Furthermore I'd look to ur 3bet percantage, go through HH and filter for those hands. This way I can get a nice read how you construct your ranges.

Yes, tbh I am unsure in a lot of this but I feel many others often are too. I think in general we combine a few of the stats to build up a mental model for a player.
I think there is a place for stats like this but you do need to know how players are behaving with them to make them useful and this is likely to take some work. For all the ones you use commonly you should have some rough idea of what is normal/tight/loose or aggro/passive etc, for players and 'fold to 4 bet%' is unclear to me even now. If you have 1000 to 3000 hands on me this stat could easily be either 0% or 100% depending on what hands of mine you recorded. This info. is useful but you do need to tread carefully with them.