200NL bottom boat in RR pot Page 1 of 2

Subscribe to 200NL bottom boat  in RR pot 18 posts, 10 voices

 
Mendez
Pair of Deuces
220 posts
Joined 02/08

20th hand of match, so no firm reads. This is my 2nd 3bet. He folded to my first 3bet. He opens 70% of btns (65 hand sample). Seems standard so far.

Full Tilt Poker $1/$2 No Limit Hold'em - 2 players
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

Hero (BB): $214.00
BTN/SB: $215.50

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is BB with 7 K
BTN/SB raises to $6, Hero raises to $20, BTN/SB calls $14

Flop: ($40.00) Q 5 7 (2 players)
Hero bets $20, BTN/SB calls $20

Turn: ($80.00) 7 (2 players)
Hero requests TIME, Hero bets $40, BTN/SB calls $40

River: ($160.00) Q (2 players)
Hero?
(Rake: $0.50)

Posted Aug 21, 2008 8:37am

czzarr
Pair of Deuces
213 posts
Joined 02/08

your betsizes make the hand pretty hard to play because you leave so much money behind eventhough you've got less than a PSB left on the river.

I like the halfpot bet on the flop although I would probably make it 25$, but on the turn I would really make it 65$, this way you're pretty much committing him to go allin by the river.

I know it's only the 20th hand of the match, but you should evaluate how likely it is he will shove TT-AA here(as a thin vbet or as a bluff with TT), this card should scare him too, so depending on your gutfeeling I would check/fold or check/call, probably check/fold though unless he seems a little crazy.

ugly spot tbh

Posted Aug 21, 2008 8:58am

czzarr
Pair of Deuces
213 posts
Joined 02/08

screw what i just said (I can't see the edit button for some reason),continue betting half pot to get value from pocket pairs, and crycall a shove

Posted Aug 21, 2008 9:00am

Mendez
Pair of Deuces
220 posts
Joined 02/08

your betsizes make the hand pretty hard to play because you leave so much money behind eventhough you've got less than a PSB left on the river.



I was deliberately trying to leave a roughly psb for the river. When he just flats the flop I figure it's a bit less likely that he has a draw, so I didn't see the need to bet big on the turn. I'm thinking, if he's got TP or better I'm stacking him whatever I do, so what's the best line to take vs his less than TP hands (mid pps, a 7)? Hence the small bet. I did consider a crai but this being only the 2nd 3bet I didn't have any reason to believe he was floating me.

Posted Aug 21, 2008 9:23am

JAXWY
Set of Deuces
398 posts
Joined 01/08

As far as river play... What range will villain call a shove w/ and what range will he shove himself?

He might make a hero call w/ 88-TT and slow played KK/AA. I think you can discount JJ (maybe TT as well) as you'd expect a 4 bet. I think you can exclude a set of 5's for obv. reasons but a worse 7 could be within his calling range, as well. And, obv. he calls w/ a Q.

He will shove a Q, maybe a 7 (depends how nitty he is) and maybe missed fd's. It's so hard to say w/o solid reads what is more +ev, but it seems like he has more hero calls in his range. That said and based on a very similar hand I played, this is a good board to check and induce a shove from a missed draw. Either way, I'm not considering a fold and not knowing if villain would be prone to making hero calls or more prone to make a big bluff I can't say what I'd do on te river.

When he just flats the flop I figure it's a bit less likely that he has a draw



Why is that? You did bet really small and gave him a good price to call. Why did you bet so small on such a drawy flop? I like a closer to 2/3 pot bet here. I'd want a bit more FE w/ mid pair here.

so what's the best line to take vs his less than TP hands (mid pps, a 7)? Hence the small bet. I did consider a crai but this being only the 2nd 3bet I didn't have any reason to believe he was floating me.



I think any bet between 1/2 and 2/3 is fine. I do think a cr on the turn is def. an option cuz your flop bet looks real weak and villain might think he can semibluff you off a mid pair or whiffed ace. But, as this is early on, I like a bet bet bet line and keep villain on the defensive before you take a line w/ more tricks in it.

Actually, the more I think about it, with 1/2 the deck completing a flush and even a few more cards completing a str8, I like a big bet on the turn. A lot of cards are gonna kill your action or beat you. I guess, I'll see what others have to say

Posted Aug 21, 2008 3:19pm

czzarr
Pair of Deuces
213 posts
Joined 02/08

I was deliberately trying to leave a roughly psb for the river. When he just flats the flop I figure it's a bit less likely that he has a draw, so I didn't see the need to bet big on the turn. I'm thinking, if he's got TP or better I'm stacking him whatever I do, so what's the best line to take vs his less than TP hands (mid pps, a 7)? Hence the small bet. I did consider a crai but this being only the 2nd 3bet I didn't have any reason to believe he was floating me.



I had those hands in mind, if they call 40$, they probably call 60-65$

Posted Aug 21, 2008 4:46pm

Mendez
Pair of Deuces
220 posts
Joined 02/08

I had those hands in mind, if they call 40$, they probably call 60-65$



Good point. I guess what I was thinking is this: if I'm in villain's shoes with TT and I'm faced with a $65 bet, I'm going to think, hmm, if I call that will leave a river pot of 210, so 1/2 psb left, I won't be able to fold to 1/2 psb. So by calling the $65 I'm committing my stack to the hand. So the $65 bet might as well be a shove. But if he sees a $40 bet he's going to think, hmm, I can call one more street and then happily fold when he fires a psb into me on the river. So he'll call, and then hopefully on the river decide he likes his tens and call the rest off anyway.

Does that make any sense?

Jaxwy, I think I agree with you that he has more hero calls in is range. If your opponent flat calls 2 streets you have to assume they have some kind of sd value, especially in a rr pot where there is so much more to be gained from semi-bluffing. So I think shoving the river is def better than checkcalling.
I guess the real question in my mind is whether a checkfold might be better.

Why did you bet so small on such a drawy flop? I like a closer to 2/3 pot bet here. I'd want a bit more FE w/ mid pair here.



Well, various reasons. I've tinkering with my betsizing in rr pots recently and found that a 1/2 pot cbet seems to get the job done as often as a 2/3 bet (i.e. getting them to fold). My first 3bet was a few hands ago and I had cbet bluffed 1/2 pot, so I was just being consistent. Obviously at this point in the match I'm not too concerned with balance (after all, the first 3bet didn't get to sd), and if I'd had AQ I'd probably have bet 3/4 pot. But with K7 I'm not sure I want any FE (a better hand isn't folding even if I bet pot anyway), and if he floats with A high because my bet is small than that's good for me. Also if he decides to call with his fd because he thinks he's getting good odds than that's also good for me. I mean, if I bet bigger and he raises with his fd then I have to fold. And when he flats and hits his flush he's not getting any more money out of me anyway.

Actually, the more I think about it, with 1/2 the deck completing a flush and even a few more cards completing a str8, I like a big bet on the turn. A lot of cards are gonna kill your action or beat you. I guess, I'll see what others have to say



good point.

If we knew villain had AT what size would you bet the turn?

Posted Aug 22, 2008 9:54am

bosoxx34
Pair of Deuces
122 posts
Joined 02/08

Good responses in this thread so far. I think I like check/calling here. I don't think he's calling anything that we beat. While nobody likes to fold over pairs in 3 bet pots I doubt he's calling with aces or kings here.

We might get a crying call from a mid pocket pair but that's such a bad card to try and extract value out of those types of hands since a queen is a pretty big part of your range. Also this isn't the type of flop where people aren't going to call twice with A high so betting the river and hope for a call from him trying to chop isn't really too good of an option either.

I think he'd raise a queen on the flop or turn so while it's part of his range it's not a very large part. So I think we check/call trying to induce a bluff from a missed draw or random bluff.

Posted Aug 25, 2008 12:33am

Mendez
Pair of Deuces
220 posts
Joined 02/08

OK , so I checked, still not really sure whether I'm checkcalling or checkfolding.

He bets $32 into $160 pot.

I call, he shows Q8

Posted Aug 25, 2008 10:06am

Stake Monster
Pair of Deuces
187 posts
Joined 01/08

He got max value ;p

I don't like the turn bet at all. He never folds a Qx there when the board pairs, and metagame purposes for your bet really don't matter so early with so little history. I see your point, I just think going for maximum value takes a prime on a board like this with 2 flush draws and one broadway.

Posted Aug 25, 2008 8:39pm

mArA
Deuce High
1 post
Joined 09/08

Pretty clear ck/call imo. If the board was rainbow ck/fold

Posted Sep 1, 2008 10:20am

RunYa$Up
Deuce High
58 posts
Joined 05/08

C/C river, all the draws missed, and he isnt calling you with PPs, hope he bluffs you some $ with a 4-flush

Posted Sep 1, 2008 5:56pm

bigP
Pair of Deuces
133 posts
Joined 08/08

Don't make a habit of 3-betting that PF.

That river is about the worst card you could see.

Posted Sep 2, 2008 2:27pm

KRANTZ
Founder
Quad Deuces
1180 posts
Joined 07/07

c/c flop, i hate flop bet and bet size, just makes hand super hard to play

as played bet way bigger on the turn or try to c/r it. turn bet size is awful, you can't accomplish anything there.

c/c river all day long

Posted Sep 5, 2008 4:06am

ColmsUM
Deuce High
85 posts
Joined 01/08

I hate to say it but you pretty much butchered this hand. Check/calling the flop is the best way to play this hand. As played, bet ATLEAST 55 on the turn. It's such a great spot to bet more though because he can ship sooooo many draws and he's never folding a queen anyway. Check/raising turn is fine too.

Check/call river.

Posted Sep 5, 2008 5:14am