WiltOnTilt
2404 posts
Joined 10/2007
The logic not to 3bet KQ/KJ is what exactly ? Vs someone that folds to alot of 3bets you want to keep the dominated hands in that would fold to a 3bet ? What other hands fall to this category ? AQ/AJ/AT/KT QJ?
against guys who fold a lot, i typically 3bet a more polarized range because hands like KJ are great to see flops with as we can flop strong top pairs and play reasonably big pots with them against dominated hands. So if we're going to 3bet and get folds a lot, i'd rather call with it and use it to strengthen my flop checkraising or check/calling range.
It would be rare for me to not 3bet a hand as strong as AQ and KQ for those reasons, but the rest of them I'd take out of my 3bet range against nits
Posted about 1 year ago
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WiltOnTilt
2404 posts
Joined 10/2007
Jedisoturi90
24 posts
Joined 05/2010
You ch back FD on the flop often ? I think both players have flush repping problem by the river.
Dont like the shove idea either because only better hand we get villain to fold is Jx. So if you are going to bluff 1/2 to 3/4 pot are good sizings to me (we rep Ax much better). We should also assume that villain might check with strong Ax hands on the river and will always call regardless of the sizing so shoving makes us lose more. If the river were nonheart J I like the shove a lot more because then our percieved range credibly contains the nuts.
Posted about 1 year ago
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WiltOnTilt
2404 posts
Joined 10/2007
Dont like the shove idea either because only better hand we get villain to fold is Jx. So if you are going to bluff 1/2 to 3/4 pot are good sizings to me (we rep Ax much better). We should also assume that villain might check with strong Ax hands on the river and will always call regardless of the sizing so shoving makes us lose more. If the river were nonheart J I like the shove a lot more because then our percieved range credibly contains the nuts.
why do you think he would/should check an ace on the river? the reason you guys don't want to shove is because we can't rep a flush... if we can't rep a flush that means we have showdown value most of the time, meaning Tx or Ax. It seems really bad for him to check Ax then, right?
Obviously if the guy isn't very good, then he can have more Ax in his range...and we kinda saw that in this video.
BTW i'm not opposed to a smaller bet size because again we're mostly trying to get him off Jx or some better hand he decided to bluff the turn with. I was probably sloppy saying shove not noticing that its a reasonably significant overbet.
Posted about 1 year ago
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goose669
527 posts
Joined 08/2008
Time Link to 00:41:18
the 3-5 spades hand hero 3 bets
if Villain raised here given he reps very little from what we have seen previous like you say, do you think sticking it in would have any / more merit that calling and playing a turn??
im caught between thinking on one hand thinking sticking it in protects vs his gutters that have 10 outs and some ramdom 6 out spazzes with 2 overs and just pure bluffs with some equity vs our hand...but on the other hand most the hands ive mentioned if they didnt improve to better than top pair will probs check back on the turn allowing us to turn our hand into a bluff possibly on the river and rep at least J-x
i might be trying to find away out of calling a raise just because im uncomfortable playing the turn..probs for the wrong reasons.
Posted about 1 year ago
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WiltOnTilt
2404 posts
Joined 10/2007
the 3-5 spades hand hero 3 bets
if Villain raised here given he reps very little from what we have seen previous like you say, do you think sticking it in would have any / more merit that calling and playing a turn??
im caught between thinking on one hand thinking sticking it in protects vs his gutters that have 10 outs and some ramdom 6 out spazzes with 2 overs and just pure bluffs with some equity vs our hand...but on the other hand most the hands ive mentioned if they didnt improve to better than top pair will probs check back on the turn allowing us to turn our hand into a bluff possibly on the river and rep at least J-x
i might be trying to find away out of calling a raise just because im uncomfortable playing the turn..probs for the wrong reasons.
both are options, shipping is kind of the easy way out and probably easy to show it's +EV.
If we call i think we can play very well on the turn against a guy like this. When he hits a pair with his gutter, he probably checks, when Q K A hits the turn he probably no longer value bets Jx (if he raised it to begin with anyway), and when one of those gutter cards hits and he still bets, he probably just has it.
So if the above assumptions shake out to be true pretty often, we can probably get it in happily on the turn on Q K A, if one of the gutter cards hits and he checks behind we now bluff the river, and if one of the gutter cards hits on the turn and he still bets, we probably have to sigh and fold, if A K Q hits the turn and he checks, river can get hard to know whether or not we turn our hand into bluff or not, if gutter card hits we probably do, if blank hits we maybe c/c.
Against tougher opponents this wouldn't work as easily but I think against this guy its the way i'd go.
Posted about 1 year ago
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goose669
527 posts
Joined 08/2008
both are options, shipping is kind of the easy way out and probably easy to show it's +EV.
If we call i think we can play very well on the turn against a guy like this. When he hits a pair with his gutter, he probably checks, when Q K A hits the turn he probably no longer value bets Jx (if he raised it to begin with anyway), and when one of those gutter cards hits and he still bets, he probably just has it.
So if the above assumptions shake out to be true pretty often, we can probably get it in happily on the turn on Q K A, if one of the gutter cards hits and he checks behind we now bluff the river, and if one of the gutter cards hits on the turn and he still bets, we probably have to sigh and fold, if A K Q hits the turn and he checks, river can get hard to know whether or not we turn our hand into bluff or not, if gutter card hits we probably do, if blank hits we maybe c/c.
Against tougher opponents this wouldn't work as easily but I think against this guy its the way i'd go.
nice one Wilt Thanx
Posted about 1 year ago
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majstereo
123 posts
Joined 01/2009
Eary part of 2nd vid: in stats we see that v is folding to cbet 43% co we are close to break even according to our sizing. What do You thing about sizing down our cbet size to 10/16 (38% FE to BE) and go from there?
06:40
how wide are U going to bluff here ? all fd w/o showdown value ?
and if he calls his range is in large portion Tx, so what cards are U going to fire on the RIVER as a bluff ?
if V is good handreader he is going to snap off all of cards beside clubs, so after betting T with flushdraw we don't have super wide bluffing range?
31:13 - V is XRing a ton so we can discount decent amount of Ax from his range. Bet is cool
35:10 - is this XC with AJ all that good ? villans is cbetting 67% of the time so his range is strong + we have low ability to turn our hand into a bluff because this guy is missing value on the turn so his calling range on the flop is wide.
2nd thing is we are going to be owned so damn often on any turn card (obv J and A are good for us but rest no)@ this board texture so IMO XC in not that hot.
best regards
Posted 12 months ago
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WiltOnTilt
2404 posts
Joined 10/2007
Hi majstereo -
Eary part of 2nd vid: in stats we see that v is folding to cbet 43% co we are close to break even according to our sizing. What do You thing about sizing down our cbet size to 10/16 (38% FE to BE) and go from there?
A fine adjustment against unaware opponents but similar to another question, I'd be a little concerned about our adjustment inducing him to realize he's folding too much (obv sample size issues can come into play here). Keep in mind that him folding 43% is already a huge win for us given that we will have equity in the hand as well.
06:40
how wide are U going to bluff here ? all fd w/o showdown value ?
and if he calls his range is in large portion Tx, so what cards are U going to fire on the RIVER as a bluff ?
if V is good handreader he is going to snap off all of cards beside clubs, so after betting T with flushdraw we don't have super wide bluffing range?
Given the range I was putting him on, I think I would rarely bluff the river whether or not I had showdown value.
35:10 - is this XC with AJ all that good ? villans is cbetting 67% of the time so his range is strong + we have low ability to turn our hand into a bluff because this guy is missing value on the turn so his calling range on the flop is wide.
2nd thing is we are going to be owned so damn often on any turn card (obv J and A are good for us but rest no)@ this board texture so IMO XC in not that hot.
We have 6 outs and also showdown value, so I still like the flop peel. him cbettnig 67% is still plenty wide for us to have the best hand here very often, plus him missing value on the turn is more of an argument for a flop call than a flop fold because we realize our 6 outs of equity more often and when he does bet the turn he's more polarized so we don't have to be as worried about him thin value betting a weak pair against us, that means we're already getting better than 2:1 on a flop call with a hand that can show down a winner unimproved plus get to realize all of the ~25% equity fairly often when behind...so that seems like a pretty good proposition to me.
Good questions, thanks for watching!
WoT
Posted 12 months ago
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