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PF is close. All 3 options have a ton of merit. But given sizing, I would play the hand exactly as you did and not fold the turn. If the board was uber dry, it's more of a cry/call.

Can you explain? The only way flatting a 4b is good is if hes bet folding a lot of flops and you can check jam and pick it up. Seems really bad to me unless this is the case........

What do you see him beating in this spot? I guess I just get burned in spots like this so many times by sets or two pair that I have turned to insta folding. Which isnt good but really not wanting to play for stacks with this type of holding either. I'm still a noob so I guess the question is when is playing for stacks with TPTK profitble?

Way way way too difficult to answer that ?. Poker is dependent on a million things, each of which change from hand to hand

Can you explain? The only way flatting a 4b is good is if hes bet folding a lot of flops and you can check jam and pick it up. Seems really bad to me unless this is the case........

We are getting a sick price and have a very strong hand, one that is already ahead or will outflop him enough to call. Further, sometimes we can outplay him as well.

Against someone who a) def/probably has some 4 bet bluffing range b) 4 bets to 2.25X, we shouldn't often fold our value 3 betting hands. Of course if we really think he 4 bet bluffs a decent amount, shoving is clearly fine. Guys, stop being so terrified of playing OOP, esp in todays HU environment where 4 betting is trendier than Jersey Shore.

We are getting a sick price and have a very strong hand, one that is already ahead or will outflop him enough to call. Further, sometimes we can outplay him as well.

Against someone who a) def/probably has some 4 bet bluffing range b) 4 bets to 2.25X, we shouldn't often fold our value 3 betting hands. Of course if we really think he 4 bet bluffs a decent amount, shoving is clearly fine. Guys, stop being so terrified of playing OOP, esp in todays HU environment where 4 betting is trendier than Jersey Shore.

It's the first time he 4b!!! I strongly disagree with you sir. You cannot outplay him when you have no idea what his 4b range is, whether it is polar or merged, and what its bluff frequency is if it is polar. Furthermore, flatting his open pre flop is clearly correct in my opinion given when I said in the earlier post and also because the only 3b history we have is that he folded twice.

You want to start off with polar 3bets early in the match IMO until further history develops.

We need to get AE Jones in on this......

Way way way too difficult to answer that ?. Poker is dependent on a million things, each of which change from hand to hand

I agree with this and that is why I think calling the 4bet pre is a mistake. We havent gathered enough information on our opponent at this point to make that call. Personally I think shoving pre may be a huge mistake. What is our opponents 4bet range? Does he ever 4bet unless he holds AA/KK/QQ/JJ? What is his 4bet bluff range? Can he make this play with air or mid-small pp? The answer is we dont know.

Also, when did AJ go from being a trap/trouble hand to being a very strong hand? I understand that in late position we are likely to have the best hand but we have all seen the blinds show up with AA or KK when it was folded around to us and we raised with AJ/A10 or worse. Until I have seen this player 4bet a couple times and gtsd than i'm not going to make assumptions. It's a fold for me.

P.S. Love the 4betting is trendy as Jerser Shore line.

Does he ever 4bet unless he holds AA/KK/QQ/JJ? ... The answer is we dont know.

That's results oriented thinking. We know lots of players 4bet really wide, and we know this guy might be one of them. Just because he happens to be a JJ+ kinda guy doesn't make our play better or worse.

That's results oriented thinking. We know lots of players 4bet really wide, and we know this guy might be one of them. Just because he happens to be a JJ+ kinda guy doesn't make our play better or worse.

I disagree. I dont think putting my opponent on a 4bet range is results oriented thinking. I think it is looking at all levels of the situation and making the best decision based on the information I have available. With 15 hands on an opponent I have know idea how wide he 4bets or if he ever 4 bets at all for that matter. It should be noted that i'm not advocating folding in this spot everytime he 4bets you. I just feel that in this particular spot it's a bad call based on the ammount of reads and hand history you have against your opponent. If he truly does 4bet wide he will pay you off soon enough. Wait for a better spot to get it in. Just my opinion though.

Bottom line: a 1/2 reg 4 bet bluffs some on average. Do some regs never 4b bluff? Sure. Do some 4 bet bluff nonstop? Yes. But against the sum of strategies your opponents will use against u 15 hands into a match against your 3 bet, I feel confident that flatting is slightly better than shoving or folding given the 4 bet sizing.

15 hands is essentially the same as 0 when trying to figure out someone's 4 bet range unless they have like folded 60% of their buttons or alternatively have 3b us every hand or done a bunch of other super aggro stuff. This is a cool hand to illustrate how it's really important to have a very solid default gameplan early on so we don't make ill-informed decisions when he have no real info to go off of.

Again, it's close and if you want to be a nit and fold, you aren't burning much money at all.