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Poker Video: Omaha/Omaha 8 by yeahthatsme (Micro/Small Stakes)

Good stuff. Looking forward to the rest of the series.

i notice upon rewatching it now that the HEM screenshots came out smaller than we expected (that's what she said). if anyone has any trouble seeing the stats let me know and i'm happy to host the screenshots on photobucket or something.

Time Link to 00:18:16

Very interesting video.

The VPIP and PFR stats don't look hugely different to what you might get at limit o8. Is there any difference in the sort of hands we would open in each position at PLO8 as compared to Limit o8?

Time Link to 01:04:39

Noob question - what is the general rule for how much we are allowed to bet preflop?

I don't see why we should expect villain to have an ace 60% of the time. BB is in position and so can call very widely (particularly if he knows that we open SB very widely although he may not). Can't he have all sorts of hands in this spot, only some with an ace?

Noob question - what is the general rule for how much we are allowed to bet preflop?

I don't see why we should expect villain to have an ace 60% of the time. BB is in position and so can call very widely (particularly if he knows that we open SB very widely although he may not). Can't he have all sorts of hands in this spot, only some with an ace?

i found this website which helps hopefully: http://www.pokerlistings.com/omaha-poker-betting-rules

and it matches how i'd been thinking of things, which is a positive development

Very interesting video.

The VPIP and PFR stats don't look hugely different to what you might get at limit o8. Is there any difference in the sort of hands we would open in each position at PLO8 as compared to Limit o8?

well as derek hammers on me in the video i needed to way tighten up when opening the SB, and in general the bigbet vs fixed nature of the game (escalating potsizes, etc) means being oop is a bigger deal than in limit o8 i think. i started out opening roughly similar ranges to lo8, yes. and i'm sure that will get tinkered with as we go on. i would guess defending the big blind is less important as well since one is oop and also it's not as big/important a fraction of the potsize as compared to lhe where the whole hand is often about battling for the blinds, with most of your stack never in play. in a big bet game where whole stack can be in play, those lil blinds seem less important.

okay, now happily awaiting derek to come in and pwn all my comments!

Noob question - what is the general rule for how much we are allowed to bet preflop?

I don't see why we should expect villain to have an ace 60% of the time. BB is in position and so can call very widely (particularly if he knows that we open SB very widely although he may not). Can't he have all sorts of hands in this spot, only some with an ace?

It's a rough estimate really based around a 50% vpip in the BB. Of that 50% vpip, approximately 60% will contain an ace.

There is no set rule, but 2.5x-pot is the norm. I usually lean to 3x, then +1 per player as a default. That is if you were curious about standards, otherwise, what BBB said.

Very interesting video.

The VPIP and PFR stats don't look hugely different to what you might get at limit o8. Is there any difference in the sort of hands we would open in each position at PLO8 as compared to Limit o8?

Yes, definitely a bit of a difference. We'll touch on this in the vids for sure. A slight shift in types of hands, while there's a bigger shift in when.

well as derek hammers on me in the video i needed to way tighten up when opening the SB, and in general the bigbet vs fixed nature of the game (escalating potsizes, etc) means being oop is a bigger deal than in limit o8 i think. i started out opening roughly similar ranges to lo8, yes. and i'm sure that will get tinkered with as we go on. i would guess defending the big blind is less important as well since one is oop and also it's not as big/important a fraction of the potsize as compared to lhe where the whole hand is often about battling for the blinds, with most of your stack never in play. in a big bet game where whole stack can be in play, those lil blinds seem less important.

We want to defend some BB's to avoid abuse when necessary, but often it takes just a little aggression in the right spots to put that to a rest. If someone knows you will battle for your blinds and sometimes marginally, they will tend to avoid those spots light.

okay, now happily awaiting derek to come in and pwn all my comments!

Whatchutalkinbout, Willis? No pwning needed!

Time Link to 01:26:14

First of all, this is looking absolutely huge as I'm just about to get my hands dirty at PLO8.

Regarding the AQJ5 hand, either I'm doing something wrong at PPT or your estimates are off. I'm getting hero at 35%-38% equity on the flop, giving villain a 3! range of 1-3%, hero being a favourite for the high.

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation
1,798,260 trials (Exhaustive)
board: 853
asqcjs5h 36.74% (78,614 scoops, 1,034,339 wins hi, 21,196 ties hi, 11,288 wins lo, 386,411 ties lo)
2% 63.26% (571,714 scoops, 742,725 wins hi, 21,196 ties hi, 1,275,761 wins lo, 386,411 ties lo)
So a call doesn't seem to be a great option, I agree.

Since the theme of the show was aggression, I started thinking about raise(fold), any merit to that? Villain is going to be in a very crappy spot OOP unless he has AA24 or AA23 exactly. What's he going to do with a naked AA4 (btw how do I figure if that's in a 2% range) or even AA2 or AA33 on this flop? Hero's range is much more likely to hold a low wrap than villain's.

Also, hero has a hand that can hugely benefit from getting folds (both hi and low) and has no problem folding to a 3! on the flop.

Really looking forward diving into the rest of the videos.

EDIT: hmm ok I obviously made a mistake as I was playing around with different boards a bit... the last card on the flop should be a 2 . Which gives hero a slightly better equity than in the sim above.

i found this website which helps hopefully: http://www.pokerlistings.com/omaha-poker-betting-rules

and it matches how i'd been thinking of things, which is a positive development

There's the example:

You're second to act on the flop with a pot of $15. The first player bets $10.
Your maximum raise is the amount of the pot. To figure this out, add up the pot + the bet + your call ($15 + $10 + $10 = $35). You are allowed to bet that total amount in addition to your call, meaning your total bet is $45 ($10 for the call + $35 for the size of the pot).

I find it easier to think like "3* the previous bet + what was put in the pot by other players (NOT COUNTING YOUR OWN BETS on this betting round, or the last bet)", this giving the max raise TO you can do. Using the figures from above, it's 3*10 + 15.
(The math behind the 3* is that first you pay the last bet (1) -> pot size is [2* the last bet + any money put in there before] so you can put in 1+2 times the last bet plus the money previously in the pot.)


If there's just the blinds 1+2 in the pot, the 2 is the previous bet so you can raise to (3*2+1)= 7.
If folded to you in the small blind, it's 3*2 = 6 total. Also if just small blind completes, it's 3*2 (the small blind's bet is now 2) = 6 total

I'm not actually sure what the rule is if you post live and dead blinds (like posting in the CO when returning the game)... if blinds are 1+2 and you posted 2 (+1) and it's folded to you, but I haven't found any other situation where this wouldn't work. Is it so that I can raise to 8 total, treating the dead blind as put in by someone else?

First of all, this is looking absolutely huge as I'm just about to get my hands dirty at PLO8.

Regarding the AQJ5 hand, either I'm doing something wrong at PPT or your estimates are off. I'm getting hero at 35%-38% equity on the flop, giving villain a 3! range of 1-3%, hero being a favourite for the high.

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation
1,798,260 trials (Exhaustive)
board: 853
asqcjs5h 36.74% (78,614 scoops, 1,034,339 wins hi, 21,196 ties hi, 11,288 wins lo, 386,411 ties lo)
2% 63.26% (571,714 scoops, 742,725 wins hi, 21,196 ties hi, 1,275,761 wins lo, 386,411 ties lo)
So a call doesn't seem to be a great option, I agree.

Since the theme of the show was aggression, I started thinking about raise(fold), any merit to that? Villain is going to be in a very crappy spot OOP unless he has AA24 or AA23 exactly. What's he going to do with a naked AA4 (btw how do I figure if that's in a 2% range) or even AA2 or AA33 on this flop? Hero's range is much more likely to hold a low wrap than villain's.

Also, hero has a hand that can hugely benefit from getting folds (both hi and low) and has no problem folding to a 3! on the flop.

Really looking forward diving into the rest of the videos.

EDIT: hmm ok I obviously made a mistake as I was playing around with different boards a bit... the last card on the flop should be a 2 . Which gives hero a slightly better equity than in the sim above.

I'd say the #1 rule in PL/NLO8 is to not put yourself into a freeoll.

If you basically cannot win low and only can win high, but can also lose high, you're getting freerolled. These spots will happen. When you're able to gather enough information to qualify the likelihood of it, you should really fold.

The villain's range in this spot is going to be so narrow, you can almost specifically put him on specific hands where it becomes an easy fold early in the hand. Yes you occasionally will fold out some of your own equity, but mostly you're avoiding situations where you're getting your stack in with -EV.