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30/60 Stud8: Fancy Play Syndrome


DJ Sensei

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Exec Producer
3098 posts
Joined 10/2007

Relevant info: after his river bet, seat 4 has only $19 left.

Poker Stars $30/$60 Limit Stud Hi/Lo $5 Ante - 6 players - View hand 839936
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

3rd Street: (1 SB)
Seat 1: xx xx J Spade____Seat 1 folds
Seat 2: xx xx 6 Heart____Seat 2 calls
Seat 4: xx xx 5 Club____Seat 4 brings in for $10____Seat 4 calls
Seat 5: xx xx K Diamond____Seat 5 folds
Hero: 7 Diamond A Spade 6 Club___Hero completes
Seat 8: xx xx 7 Spade____Seat 8 calls

4th Street: (5 SB) (4 players)
Seat 2: xx xx 6 Heart Q Heart____Seat 2 checks____Seat 2 calls
Seat 4: xx xx 5 Club 8 Heart____Seat 4 checks____Seat 4 calls
Hero: 7 Diamond A Spade 6 Club 2 Club___Hero bets
Seat 8: xx xx 7 Spade 4 Heart____Seat 8 calls

5th Street: (4.5 BB) (4 players)
Seat 2: xx xx 6 Heart Q Heart 4 Diamond____Seat 2 calls____Seat 2 calls
Seat 4: xx xx 5 Club 8 Heart Q Club____Seat 4 checks____Seat 4 raises
Hero: 7 Diamond A Spade 6 Club 2 Club 7 Heart___Hero bets___Hero calls
Seat 8: xx xx 7 Spade 4 Heart T Spade____Seat 8 calls____Seat 8 calls

6th Street: (12.5 BB) (4 players)
Seat 2: xx xx 6 Heart Q Heart 4 Diamond 3 Spade____Seat 2 bets____Seat 2 calls
Seat 4: xx xx 5 Club 8 Heart Q Club 2 Heart____Seat 4 checks____Seat 4 raises
Hero: 7 Diamond A Spade 6 Club 2 Club 7 Heart 8 Club___Hero checks___Hero calls
Seat 8: xx xx 7 Spade 4 Heart T Spade 9 Diamond____Seat 8 checks____Seat 8 folds

7th Street: (18.5 BB) (3 players)
Seat 2: xx xx 6 Heart Q Heart 4 Diamond 3 Spade xx____
Seat 4: xx xx 5 Club 8 Heart Q Club 2 Heart xx____Seat 4 bets
Hero: 7 Diamond A Spade 6 Club 2 Club 7 Heart 8 Club 9 Club___Hero raises

In retrospect, my 6th street peel is a bit light. Or maybe a lot light. On 7th I decide to try and get seat 2 off a better low, thus winning myself half the pot. And if he does call me, I likely get a $40 rebate with my pair of 7s. Is it too spewy though?

Posted over 1 year ago

Easy Squeezy

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994 posts
Joined 07/2009

I think the fact that he bet out on 6th when he could have taken a free card means he likes his hand. On the other hand, his 2s and 7s are pretty dead and would need either one for a straight. I'm just having a hard time thinking of what would want to bet 6th and then fold here on 7th in a pot this big.

I also think the 6th peel is light, but atleast all your A outs are live(kind of). You have a rough 8 and there's a bunch of wheel cards gone. As bad as it sounds, I think the pair of 7s might be the strongest part of our hand right now and I think I want to fold.

Seat 4's play has made me suspicious though. Why has he check-raised both 5th and 6th? Kind of an unusual line.

Posted over 1 year ago

5carab

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765 posts
Joined 07/2010

Is it bad that I really wanna 3-bet 5th? I just figure that it's hard to be in bad shape vs. Seat 4 (unless he's weird and has trips somehow and even on that rare occasion we're doing well for half). At the same time, the two extra bets may help by getting other low draws out and securing our high hand a bit if we happen to make something better. This might be really spewy...

Posted over 1 year ago

DJ Sensei

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Exec Producer
3098 posts
Joined 10/2007

Is it bad that I really wanna 3-bet 5th? I just figure that it's hard to be in bad shape vs. Seat 4 (unless he's weird and has trips somehow and even on that rare occasion we're doing well for half). At the same time, the two extra bets may help by getting other low draws out and securing our high hand a bit if we happen to make something better. This might be really spewy...



I like this! I'm not entirely sure that I'll be able to get both of the low draws out but even if we just lose one of them thats a good thing, and yes our equity should be pretty good here (though many of our good cards are dead).

Posted over 1 year ago

Joe Tall

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Founder
6970 posts
Joined 11/2006

Looks like we have to fold 6th facing two bets. The issue is that we get jammed WAYYY to often with a crappy low draw and a meh hand for high. Going to runs some ranges to find out where we stand.

Posted over 1 year ago

Joe Tall

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6970 posts
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Looks like we have to fold 6th facing two bets. The issue is that we get jammed WAYYY to often with a crappy low draw and a meh hand for high. Going to runs some ranges to find out where we stand.



Well if we give them wide ranges:

ProPokerTools Stud Hi/Lo Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
dead cards: JSpadeKDiamond7Spade4HearttSpade9Diamond
7dAs|6c2c7h8c 43.34% (89,473 scoops, 227,285 wins hi, 0 ties hi, 292,749 wins lo, 165 ties lo)
6*, *h*h, LL|6hQh4d3s 29.65% (49,319 scoops, 189,848 wins hi, 294 ties hi, 165,592 wins lo, 317 ties lo)
55,*c*c, A5, LL|5c8hQc2h 27.01% (23,520 scoops, 182,573 wins hi, 294 ties hi, 141,177 wins lo, 482 ties lo)

Narrow it down a bit, taking out the paired lows:

ProPokerTools Stud Hi/Lo Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
dead cards: JSpadeKDiamond7Spade4HearttSpade9Diamond
7dAs|6c2c7h8c 32.63% (48,816 scoops, 274,604 wins hi, 0 ties hi, 116,863 wins lo, 247 ties lo)
*h*h, A2,A5,A7,A8, 25, 27, 28, 57, 58, 87|6hQh4d3s 41.89% (108,102 scoops, 181,411 wins hi, 1,485 ties hi, 319,683 wins lo, 1,623 ties lo)
55,*c*c, A3, A4, A6, A7, 34, 36, 37, 46, 67|5c8hQc2h 25.48% (34,354 scoops, 142,500 wins hi, 1,485 ties hi, 161,584 wins lo, 1,870 ties lo)

I might have missed a combo, but should be good. I really feel the range is more like the 2nd run here than the 1st.

Man, this is close. Gotta think some more.

Posted over 1 year ago

AxeGrinder

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85 posts
Joined 12/2008

Joe, a few questions. If we had a made 7 low on 5th, shouldn't we be jamming against the other probable low draws? Also, the somewhat strange c/r on 5th and 6th by Seat 4 should heavily weigh his range towards trips (rolled 5's?..buried Q's?). I am not sure how heavily we should give him credit for that as he played this uncoventionally. If we give him the top of his high hand range then our equity plummets on 6th which makes it a trivial fold.

JSpadeKDiamond7Spade4HearttSpade9Diamond
7dAs|6c2c7h8c 20.62% (2,940 scoops, 8,170 wins hi, 0 ties hi, 239,236 wins lo, 0 ties lo)
*h*h, A2,A5,A7,A8, 25, 27, 28, 57, 58, 87|6hQh4d3s 37.20% (60,024 scoops, 85,630 wins hi, 0 ties hi, 360,764 wins lo, 0 ties lo)
55,QQ|5c8hQc2h 42.18% (0 scoops, 506,200 wins hi, 0 ties hi, 0 wins lo, 0 ties lo)

I guess there is no way to get PropokerTools to weigh a strong range with a weaker range say putting the strong range at 75%. If we put one combo with a weaker range it will give us 66.7% of the strong range.

On 7th, since Seat 4 has only $19 dollars left after his bet, isn't raising pretty optimistic considering that we can't threaten a cap and the pot is bloated enough that Seat 2 will call the vast majority of the time with any decent low?

Posted over 1 year ago

Joe Tall

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Founder
6970 posts
Joined 11/2006

Joe, a few questions. If we had a made 7 low on 5th, shouldn't we be jamming against the other probable low draws?



Oh absolutely, we'd have >50% equity likely.

Also, the somewhat strange c/r on 5th and 6th by Seat 4 should heavily weigh his range towards trips (rolled 5's?..buried Q's?). I am not sure how heavily we should give him credit for that as he played this uncoventionally. If we give him the top of his high hand range then our equity plummets on 6th which makes it a trivial fold.

JSpadeKDiamond7Spade4HearttSpade9Diamond
7dAs|6c2c7h8c 20.62% (2,940 scoops, 8,170 wins hi, 0 ties hi, 239,236 wins lo, 0 ties lo)
*h*h, A2,A5,A7,A8, 25, 27, 28, 57, 58, 87|6hQh4d3s 37.20% (60,024 scoops, 85,630 wins hi, 0 ties hi, 360,764 wins lo, 0 ties lo)
55,QQ|5c8hQc2h 42.18% (0 scoops, 506,200 wins hi, 0 ties hi, 0 wins lo, 0 ties lo)

I guess there is no way to get PropokerTools to weigh a strong range with a weaker range say putting the strong range at 75%. If we put one combo with a weaker range it will give us 66.7% of the strong range.

On 7th, since Seat 4 has only $19 dollars left after his bet, isn't raising pretty optimistic considering that we can't threaten a cap and the pot is bloated enough that Seat 2 will call the vast majority of the time with any decent low?



I do think it is a fold now and the river raise is overly optimistic.

Posted over 1 year ago

AxeGrinder

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85 posts
Joined 12/2008

So how would you proceed on 5th, given our hand? Not jamming 5th for the most part makes our hand transparent that we don't have a made low.

Do you still jam 5th a certain percentage of the time for deception and to try to push out competing low draws to increase our equity? Or do you play your hand as played and see what transpires on 6th? What percentage would you allot to each play? This situation arises quite often for me, and I am not sure If I am jamming too much or not enough.

Posted over 1 year ago

ceegee

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637 posts
Joined 05/2008

Raise 5th for sure.
I think 6th is tricky. You will get exploited a lot if you always check fold. Seat 4 clearly has a high hand and if he doesn't it looks like two low clubs in the hole in which case our high hand might be good if we improve at all and seat 2 can now bet out knowing that seat 4 will raise a good amount to thin the field. So seat 2 could easily have a pair and draw or two pair and we get shot out of the pot. I like betting 6th and then seeing what they do. If it goes raise raise then folding looks best. But if seat 2 can drive out seat 4 then we get the best case scenario imo

Posted over 1 year ago

blumpster

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156 posts
Joined 01/2007

3b 5th
as played, instafold 6th
on river, seat 2 is never folding a low, especially since he knows Seat 4 can't reopen the betting. when you raise, your hand looks more like a flush than a good low.

Posted over 1 year ago




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