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Stud hi 2/4 hand vs Joe Tall

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Easy Squeezy

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993 posts
Joined 07/2009

I saw him sitting there and figured he might be making a video, so I sat down(plus I got waxed at 5/10 a little earlier). This hand interested me.

Seat 3 has about a 35% VPIP, but is a passive calling station who almost always bets for value
Seat 6 is Joe Tall

Full Tilt Poker $2/$4 Limit Stud $0.40 Ante - 7 players - View hand 814606
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

3rd Street: (1.4 SB)
Seat 1: xx xx 9 Heart____Seat 1 calls
Seat 2: xx xx 5 Spade____Seat 2 calls
Seat 3: xx xx 5 Diamond____Seat 3 calls
Seat 4: xx xx Q Diamond____Seat 4 calls
Seat 6: xx xx K Spade____Seat 6 calls
Hero: T Club 9 Spade T Diamond___Hero calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2 Spade____Seat 8 brings in for $0.50

4th Street: (3.15 SB) (7 players)
Seat 1: xx xx 9 Heart 6 Diamond____Seat 1 folds
Seat 2: xx xx 5 Spade K Heart____Seat 2 folds
Seat 3: xx xx 5 Diamond A Club____Seat 3 checks____Seat 3 calls
Seat 4: xx xx Q Diamond 7 Heart____Seat 4 checks____Seat 4 folds
Seat 6: xx xx K Spade Q Club____Seat 6 bets____Seat 6 calls
Hero: T Club 9 Spade T Diamond 8 Heart___Hero raises
Seat 8: xx xx 2 Spade 8 Club____Seat 8 folds

5th Street: (4.575 BB) (3 players)
Seat 3: xx xx 5 Diamond A Club 6 Heart____Seat 3 checks____Seat 3 calls
Seat 6: xx xx K Spade Q Club 2 Diamond____Seat 6 checks____Seat 6 calls
Hero: T Club 9 Spade T Diamond 8 Heart 7 Spade___Hero bets___Hero says "be carefull...I have the 2 or purple horsehoes"

6th Street: (7.575 BB) (3 players)
Seat 3: xx xx 5 Diamond A Club 6 Heart 4 Club____Seat 3 checks____Seat 3 calls
Seat 6: xx xx K Spade Q Club 2 Diamond 6 Spade____Seat 6 checks____Seat 6 calls
Hero: T Club 9 Spade T Diamond 8 Heart 7 Spade 4 Heart___Hero bets

7th Street: (10.575 BB) (3 players)
Seat 3: xx xx 5 Diamond A Club 6 Heart 4 Club xx____Seat 3 checks
Seat 6: xx xx K Spade Q Club 2 Diamond 6 Spade xx____Seat 6 checks
Hero: T Club 9 Spade T Diamond 8 Heart 7 Spade 4 Heart K Diamond___Hero checks

I was trying to isolate him on 4th w/ the dead $ to improve my equity and then caught well on 5th so I kept betting(now that I look back, there were 3 dead 6s). I felt like I wasn't going to get 2 folds w/ a bet on 7th.

Any comments are welcome.

Posted about 4 years ago

delcrossb

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4268 posts
Joined 04/2009

I like your play on 4th. 5th I'd put in the bet because we do catch well and jacks are live.

I would probably check 6th. No one is folding and I think we can get in a river raise the times we improve since one of the other guys will probably bet. I'd want to have 2 pair to put in another bet there.

Posted about 4 years ago

AxeGrinder

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154 posts
Joined 12/2008

I was playing in the game before Joe sat down to my left. Being dead tired and having Joe in the game, hastened my exit.

The game was real loose, so I don't see any merit in raising 3rd. Limping along is fine as a complete would probably cause the entire field to call. Obviously, if you had a hand that played better multiway, building a pot would be fine.

On 4th, it's close between raising and just calling. On one hand, it gives us the betting lead on 5th as Joe and the passive player are going to be checking to us the vast majority of the time. This takes away our options of raising 5th when we catch as well as we do (Note: there are only two 6's dead on 5th, the other 6 went dead on 6th street.) Joe might check 5th anyway. On the other hand, raising does isolate Joe quite often, which for the reasons that you listed is a perfectly valid play.

5th street is a mandatory bet after catching so well. Just be the sheer fact that your equity is so strong. Putting Joe and the passive player on weaker ranges your equity can be as high as 50%+ ProPokerTools Stud Hi Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
dead cards: 9Heart 5Spade QDiamond 2Spade 6Diamond KHeart 7Heart 8Club
* * | 5d Ac 6h 19.42% (116,521 wins, 22 ties)
9+ 9+ | Ks Qc 2d 29.89% (179,344 wins, 9 ties)
Tc 9s Td 8h 7s 50.69% (304,109 wins, 21 ties)

Even if we know that Joe has a pair of queens and another card 9 or higher and the other opponent has a range of wired pairs from 2's to 9's with 3 flushes our equity doesn't decrease that much.

ProPokerTools Stud Hi Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
dead cards: 9Heart 5Spade QDiamond 2Spade 6Diamond KHeart 7Heart 8Club
22-99, *d *d | 5d Ac 6h 21.72% (130,278 wins, 38 ties)
9+ Q | Ks Qc 2d 31.85% (191,125 wins, 0 ties)
Tc 9s Td 8h 7s 46.43% (278,559 wins, 38 ties)

On 6th street, I like checking behind and trying to improve as our equity drops off dramatically and we are never garnering any folds. That being said after betting 6th, I would bet 7th strictly for the reason that it looks like a terrible spot to bluff. You have one station that might call with worse, which would make the overcall by Joe impossible with a single higher pair, and you have a thinking player in Joe (rumour has it) that might think that this is terrible spot to bluff into two players and might fold. Sure your going to get looked up more often than not but it only has to work less than 10% to be effective and you are telling a credible story.

Posted about 4 years ago

RustyBrooks

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522 posts
Joined 02/2009

I like the way you played the hand, particularly 4th. This is a great example of something we talked about in another thread, about not raising the TT on 3rd and instead finding a good spot to knock players out in future streets. You don't need the best hand to do this with, either, 2nd best is a good hand here if you can pick up extra equity by knocking out some other players. Also if joe picked up something like a straight draw, you're holding some blockers.

The idea of betting 7th is actually really interesting, something that should possibly be in your arsenal but not used that often. The idea is, if Joe knows that the player between you is a calling station, and he figures you know it too, then he should know your bet shouldn't be a bluff and should find a fold of some hands that beat you (bigger one pair hands, pretty optimistic to think he'd fold better than one pair). This situation is called being in a "protected pot" and the general idea is that a bet from either of you "should" be a genuine value bet. In order for this to work, though, you need to usually be betting for value, or regs will catch on. BTW this sort of involves a "I know that you know that I know" sort of thing so it helps if you have some history with the non-fish player.

Posted about 4 years ago

AxeGrinder

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154 posts
Joined 12/2008

Just to clarify two points.

I also prefer raising 4th to just calling. I just wanted to point out that calling shouldn't be ruled out completely.

Also, I didn't mean to imply that a 7th street bluff should be automatic. It's just something that has to be considered some of the time factoring into the strength shown on all streets after 3rd, the size of the pot, and the liklihood that both opponents don't have greater than a single pair. Assuming that Joe donked out a pair greater than 10's on 4th, his two pair outs are almost completely dead. The passive opponent can have anything. If I had 10's up, I would be value betting 100% of the time.

BTW Rusty, what do you think of the bet on 6th street?

Posted about 4 years ago

RustyBrooks

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522 posts
Joined 02/2009


BTW Rusty, what do you think of the bet on 6th street?



I think one bet is going in on 6th or 7th like it or not. If you're going to call 7th you might as well bet 6th yourself and take the free on one 7th unless you improve. Your notion that you can raise if you improve has some merit too of course, but basically you will almost always have to pay 1 bet either way and will almost always make 2 bets if you get there so it doesn't matter that much either way. If you will always call 7th if you check 6th then I prefer betting 6th - *unless* you think you can get a free showdown even if you check 6th. Although if that's the case, you probably have the best hand and are giving a free card.

Posted about 4 years ago

AxeGrinder

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154 posts
Joined 12/2008

I think one bet is going in on 6th or 7th like it or not.



Wait, are we calling 7th UI? If the passive station whom the OP refers to as someone "who almost always bets for value" bets are we ever any good? Same goes for Joe, who almost always will not be bluffing in this situation. Not only that, we have to worry about the station overcalling with a weak two pair, even after we make a hero call that is almost never any good.

Also, your assuming that we have the best hand on 6th. I wouldn't be surprised one bit if we checked it down that we didn't have the best hand on 6th street. So I don't think that a 6th street bet is for value. Even though 5th street definately is as I showed with the hand equity simulation.

I think the best line is to check back 6th and preserve our implied odds by taking a free card and raise if we make a straight.

Posted about 4 years ago

Easy Squeezy

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993 posts
Joined 07/2009

I like the way you played the hand, particularly 4th. This is a great example of something we talked about in another thread, about not raising the TT on 3rd and instead finding a good spot to knock players out in future streets.



Funny, that thread is exactly what I thought about while deciding to call or raise on 3rd.

The idea of betting 7th is actually really interesting, something that should possibly be in your arsenal but not used that often. The idea is, if Joe knows that the player between you is a calling station, and he figures you know it too, then he should know your bet shouldn't be a bluff and should find a fold of some hands that beat you (bigger one pair hands, pretty optimistic to think he'd fold better than one pair). This situation is called being in a "protected pot" and the general idea is that a bet from either of you "should" be a genuine value bet. In order for this to work, though, you need to usually be betting for value, or regs will catch on. BTW this sort of involves a "I know that you know that I know" sort of thing so it helps if you have some history with the non-fish player.



This did flash through my head for a second while deciding what to do, but I had only played a few hands w/ Joe and wasn't sure what he thought of my game. I believe he did see me bet a big pair UI heads up on the river previously against the same villain. I do know that he was aware that I knew who he was...especially after the needle on 5th street.

Posted about 4 years ago

Easy Squeezy

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993 posts
Joined 07/2009

I was playing in the game before Joe sat down to my left. Being dead tired and having Joe in the game, hastened my exit.



Really, what name do you play under?

On 4th, it's close between raising and just calling.



I was hoping by raising that I could take on the master one on one, just like the old samurai movies w/ the teacher and student...jk

But really, I appreciate your advice.

Posted about 4 years ago

rubbishaka80

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555 posts
Joined 07/2007

Did you make that purple horseshoe comment in the chat or just added it for fun afterward? It seems to me giving away, that you recognize him, is not the best move.

As for the hand, I think you played it fine.

Posted about 4 years ago

RustyBrooks

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522 posts
Joined 02/2009

Wait, are we calling 7th UI? If the passive station whom the OP refers to as someone "who almost always bets for value" bets are we ever any good? Same goes for Joe, who almost always will not be bluffing in this situation. Not only that, we have to worry about the station overcalling with a weak two pair, even after we make a hero call that is almost never any good.



Well, here's the problem... If you check 6th, almost anyone decent is going to up the percentage of times they bluff 7th a lot. Checking 6th in this case is a VERY weak action.


Also, your assuming that we have the best hand on 6th. I wouldn't be surprised one bit if we checked it down that we didn't have the best hand on 6th street. So I don't think that a 6th street bet is for value. Even though 5th street definately is as I showed with the hand equity simulation.



No, I'm not, I'm assuming we have the 2nd best hand a lot and the best hand sometimes, plus redraws to the best hand some more times. Betting 6th protects us the times we have the best hand, by keeping us from getting bluffed on 7th and by getting some $ in good. When we have the worst hand it's the same as checking 6th and calling 7th.


I think the best line is to check back 6th and preserve our implied odds by taking a free card and raise if we make a straight.



This is the best line if you are folding to a bet on 7th. So the question is whether you're sure you can do that or not. Depends a bit on who you expect to bet, but I am pretty sure Joe is going to bet 7th a lot if you check 6th and you're not gonna like it.

Posted about 4 years ago

AxeGrinder

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154 posts
Joined 12/2008

Well, here's the problem... If you check 6th, almost anyone decent is going to up the percentage of times they bluff 7th a lot. Checking 6th in this case is a VERY weak action.



It seems that you forgot the concept that you mentioned earlier that this is a "protected" pot with the 3rd opponent in who is a station. This fact alone lessons the chance that Joe would be bluffing a lot regardless of whether we bet 6th or not. Futhermore, with all the two pair dead cards out (assuming Joe has an overpair to 10's), it's difficult for him to represent a geniune value hand. Lastly, he has to be wary of us raising the river both for value and sometimes as a bluff. A raise on the river looks very strong and I would expect to garner folds a certain percentage of the time. IMHO, betting 6th and calling down 7th UI is a VERY weak play as I expect to be good almost never. In a 3-way pot bare tens is very poor bluff catcher. TBH, I think that bluff raising the river would be much more +EV than calling down UI.


No, I'm not, I'm assuming we have the 2nd best hand a lot and the best hand sometimes, plus redraws to the best hand some more times. Betting 6th protects us the times we have the best hand, by keeping us from getting bluffed on 7th and by getting some $ in good. When we have the worst hand it's the same as checking 6th and calling 7th.



I agree with what you said here except I don't feel that we are obligated to calling 7th UI and that the pot is necessarily more protected. It seems to me to be neutral EV betting on 6th. The 4 of hearts definately didn't improve our range and we are not getting any folds. Like I mentioned previously, if we are betting 6th, we have to consider betting 7th as it's plausible that we have J 9 in the hole and semi-bluffed 4th, got there on 5th and bet for sheer value on all other streets. As I mentioned before it doesn't have to work often. As the hand was played, and even though 7th street was checked down, I wouldn't expect to be good here very often.


This is the best line if you are folding to a bet on 7th. So the question is whether you're sure you can do that or not. Depends a bit on who you expect to bet, but I am pretty sure Joe is going to bet 7th a lot if you check 6th and you're not gonna like it.



I am sure I can fold 7th in a 3-way protected pot with just bare tens. I might enjoy Joe betting 7th strictly on the basis of a 6th street check. Keep in mind that this is a 2/4 game filled with loose passive stations. I am sure Joe will realize that to beat this game is not to make some desperation bluffs on 7th street, but to actually v-bet people to death. I would like it even more if I made my straight.

Posted about 4 years ago

Easy Squeezy

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993 posts
Joined 07/2009

Did you make that purple horseshoe comment in the chat or just added it for fun afterward? It seems to me giving away, that you recognize him, is not the best move.



Yes, I typed it in chat during play. I was just trying to have some fun after a bad day.

Posted about 4 years ago

RustyBrooks

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522 posts
Joined 02/2009

It seems that you forgot the concept that you mentioned earlier that this is a "protected" pot with the 3rd opponent in who is a station.



Not really. If we appear likely to give up then joe can bet with, say, a pair of 9s or something, which he figures is better than the calling station's hand, but worse than ours. Basically, he can make the same play we had planned on making, *because* it's a protected pot. It would be a tough play for him to make if we bet 6th because it appears we have every intention of showing down - betting 6th and folding 7th is not a particularly common line among players. But when we check, we're signalling that we will give up a large percentage of 7th sts.

In all cases in poker we want to figure out what our opponents want us to do and disappoint them. If we check 6th, do you think we're telling joe we'd like him to bet 7th, or check?

Posted about 4 years ago

Easy Squeezy

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Not really. If we appear likely to give up then joe can bet with, say, a pair of 9s or something, which he figures is better than the calling station's hand, but worse than ours. Basically, he can make the same play we had planned on making, *because* it's a protected pot. It would be a tough play for him to make if we bet 6th because it appears we have every intention of showing down - betting 6th and folding 7th is not a particularly common line among players. But when we check, we're signalling that we will give up a large percentage of 7th sts.



When I first went back to look at the hand I thought that I liked a check on 6th, but now I think I like the bet.

Not to change the topic, but what are we doing if we hit a brick like a 2 or 3 on 5th?

Posted about 4 years ago




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