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You are correct, we are jamming 91.5 and not 80 which was where my mistake was.

<--- Needs to do more maths

i m far from a computer (hollidays) but that seem very interesting. i will work on it as soon as i come back. thanks have a nice day

u can also do it like that

200bb x our equity when called (around 70bb) = x1

90bb our shove = x2

30bb we win if he folds = x3

x2 - x1 = 90bb - 70bb = 20bb - amount we risk to win x3 (30bb)

20bb / 20bb + 30bb (x3) = 40%

and lets check it

= 40% x 30bb - [60% (200bb x 35% - 90bb)] = 12 - 12 = 0

If villain 3bets a non-linear range I will start to flat A LOT more hands. One of the best ways to make that observation is to look at the hands villain flats vs our steals.

Trying to grasp this idea, kind of confused, though; We are flatting more hands vs 3 bets depending on what he flats vs our steals, but by what criteria? We make the "observation" as to the linearity/ non-linearity based on what he flats with but does this mean if he is flatting hands a little worse than what he 3 bets, it's linear, and if he flats medium hands while 3bing the bottom of his range its non linear? Interested in examples of how we apply this? Is this covered in a video maybe?

@improva
Good post, but what about taking depolarized/polarized 3b ranges into consideration? Are you sure calling hands like KJs/KTs is correct vs depolarized 7%? There are lots of hands that dominate us!

Regarding EV calcs. With 77:
- we have 37.2% equity vs { TT+, AQs+, AQo+ }
- my Excel calcs show I need ~~ 43% fold equity to make the shove 0EV (remember about rake when we get called)

@improva
Good post, but what about taking depolarized/polarized 3b ranges into consideration? Are you sure calling hands like KJs/KTs is correct vs depolarized 7%? There are lots of hands that dominate us!

Regarding EV calcs. With 77:
- we have 37.2% equity vs { TT+, AQs+, AQo+ }
- my Excel calcs show I need ~~ 43% fold equity to make the shove 0EV (remember about rake when we get called)

I did take that into account.

If villain 3bets a non-linear range I will start to flat A LOT more hands. One of the best ways to make that observation is to look at the hands villain flats vs our steals.

Post flop you have to play your range. If you find it hard to do that then I think it is fine to 4bet with those hands. But you very quickly end up 4betting way too much.

This is all assuming that we are IP and that villain does not call 4bets with any relevant frequency.

Against a tight range (5-6% in is those positions) I normally don't have much of a flatting range (unless the SPR allows me to flat PPs). And I never 4bet/fold. I simply just stick it in with JJ+, AK

As villain's range gets wider I flat with :
(7%) AQs, AJs, ATs, AQo, TT-88, KQs, KJs, KTs
(8%) QJs, AJo, KQo, QTs, A9s, 77
(10%) QTs, ATo, JTs, KJo,
(12%) T9s, A8s, K9s
(15%) ... you should get the idea by now

etc

^^^^ Some really good advice right here.

Improva, I would love to hear how you alter your defending range when facing a 3bet OOP. Are you 4betting more hands for value to negate being at a positional disadvantage? Playing a lot tighter too? I can't imagine flatting hands like T9s/A8s/K9s can be good against even a wide, non-linear 3betting range oop. Would it better to add more blockers into our 4bet/fold range than defend wider when OOP?

I think in all these math considerations, people also underestimate how often we are able to win in 3bet pots IP, when we don't have the best hand, simply by having a good grasp of how villain plays in 3bet pots.
Some villains double barrel their entire 3bet range and check/fold the river when they miss. Some players bet once and give up. Some players triple barrel their entire range. There's a lot of money to be made in figuring out who does what and playing them accordingly.

^^^^ Some really good advice right here.

Improva, I would love to hear how you alter your defending range when facing a 3bet OOP. Are you 4betting more hands for value to negate being at a positional disadvantage? Playing a lot tighter too? I can't imagine flatting hands like T9s/A8s/K9s can be good against even a wide, non-linear 3betting range oop. Would it better to add more blockers into our 4bet/fold range than defend wider when OOP?

I think there are too many factors here for me to write a relatively short and good answer.

I think in all these math considerations, people also underestimate how often we are able to win in 3bet pots IP, when we don't have the best hand, simply by having a good grasp of how villain plays in 3bet pots.
Some villains double barrel their entire 3bet range and check/fold the river when they miss. Some players bet once and give up. Some players triple barrel their entire range. There's a lot of money to be made in figuring out who does what and playing them accordingly.

That is want I meant by "at least" as wide a range. We can certainly expand our range as we learn more about our opponent.

I think there are too many factors here for me to write a relatively short and good answer.

Makes sense

What about a more specific spot? Say we are CO vs BTN, and BTN is unknown. What sort of range are we defending?

How would our play differ when we are CO vs a BTN reg with a 10%+ 3bet from the BTN, who we assume has stats on our wide CO opening range? (I guess our response would change alot based on postflop reads, so let's assume we have none, just that BTN is a reg not a fish)

Makes sense

What about a more specific spot? Say we are CO vs BTN, and BTN is unknown. What sort of range are we defending?


How would our play differ when we are CO vs a BTN reg with a 10%+ 3bet from the BTN, who we assume has stats on our wide CO opening range? (I guess our response would change alot based on postflop reads, so let's assume we have none, just that BTN is a reg not a fish)

10% is pretty tight. Unless I had a reason to believe that villain flats hands from the range [TT+;AQ+] I would not have a 4bet/fold range and I would most likely just tighten up slightly in the CO and play around 25% of hands.

Around 12%+ it starts to get interesting. First of all I would certainly play tighter in the CO.. and I might start flatting OOP. If villain is good it is still very hard to flat hands OOP because our range is going to be face up in a lot of situations. In that case I don't mind an approach where we flat all hands we don't fold. The alternative is to 4bet a wider range (both 4bet/calling and 4bet/fold). Against players that don't leverage the fact that our range is face up... We can both flat some hands and have a 4bet range. As stacks gets deeper we can call with more hands.. and it becomes less of a problem that we split our range in a calling and 4betting range.

10% is pretty tight. Unless I had a reason to believe that villain flats hands from the range [TT+;AQ+]

Against players that don't leverage the fact that our range is face up... We can both flat some hands and have a 4bet range. As stacks gets deeper we can call with more hands.. and it becomes less of a problem that we split our range in a calling and 4betting range.

Can you elaborate on these two (ie what effect does it have when villain can be flatting some premiums sometimes, and can you describe what a situation where villain not leveraging our face up range looks like - how do you figure out he's not leveraging us?)?

Can you elaborate on these two (ie what effect does it have when villain can be flatting some premiums sometimes, and can you describe what a situation where villain not leveraging our face up range looks like - how do you figure out he's not leveraging us?)?

a) he can have strong hands on all board textures.
b) allows me to get to show down with marginal hands on flops where it is hard for me to have a strong hand. Calls river bets when it is hard for me to be bluffing.

a) he can have strong hands on all board textures.

Sorry, I mean what effect does it have on your open range construction?

b) allows me to get to show down with marginal hands on flops where it is hard for me to have a strong hand. Calls river bets when it is hard for me to be bluffing.

thx

Sorry, I mean what effect does it have on your open range construction?

I don't think it has much influence on my opening range.

Thanks for that Improva, very helpful

This is all assuming that we are IP and that villain does not call 4bets with any relevant frequency.

Against a tight range (5-6% in is those positions) I normally don't have much of a flatting range (unless the SPR allows me to flat PPs). And I never 4bet/fold. I simply just stick it in with JJ+, AK

As villain's range gets wider I flat with :
(7%) AQs, AJs, ATs, AQo, TT-88, KQs, KJs, KTs
(8%) QJs, AJo, KQo, QTs, A9s, 77
(10%) QTs, ATo, JTs, KJo,
(12%) T9s, A8s, K9s
(15%) ... you should get the idea by now

If villain 3bets a non-linear range I will start to flat A LOT more hands. One of the best ways to make that observation is to look at the hands villain flats vs our steals.

My range for 4bet/folding is normally just outside the range above: A9o, KTo, A8o, QJo

If we have additional information about say villain's 5bet range I might put AQs, AJs, TT-77 into my 4bet/call range (but that is only against very aggro players and in HU). Against players who 3bet/fold too much I will expand my 4bet/fold range.

F23b should most likely be pretty high. As long as we construct our defending range as a function of how wide we get 3bet it is impossible for villain to exploit us. As a rule of thumb we should be able to continue (flat+4bet) with slightly more hands than villain is 3 betting.

improva, sorry for the late question. just read this thread, particularly your post. great post!

when you say "And I never 4bet/fold. I simply just stick it in with JJ+, AK"
do you mean "4bet-all-in" i..e shove?
or do you mean "4bet (what size?) and then call off vs a 5bet shove / or 6bet-all-in"
what i am asking: do you make it a "normal" 4bet size and then stick it in, or stick it in right away?
i assume the former, so that you can balance that vs your "4bet/fold-to-5bet" hands. right?

As villain's range gets wider I flat with :
(7%) AQs, AJs, ATs, AQo, TT-88, KQs, KJs, KTs
(8%) QJs, AJo, KQo, QTs, A9s, 77
(10%) QTs, ATo, JTs, KJo,
(12%) T9s, A8s, K9s
(15%) ... you should get the idea by now


What specific 3Bet % would you translate these 3Bet Ranges to Improva?

As villain's range gets wider I flat with :
(7%) AQs, AJs, ATs, AQo, TT-88, KQs, KJs, KTs
(8%) QJs, AJo, KQo, QTs, A9s, 77
(10%) QTs, ATo, JTs, KJo,
(12%) T9s, A8s, K9s
(15%) ... you should get the idea by now


What specific 3Bet % would you translate these 3Bet Ranges to Improva?

Sry what?

Advice please on specific 3 betting situation:

I find recently this is happening to me a lot. I am a TAG player - 3 bet of 9%. Some sessions I may 3 bet a bit too much from the BB.

I am BB. Good reg on btn.

He opens for 2.5x, I 3 bet to 8.5x, he 4 bets to 20x.

I have AQo, or 77 - I don;t feel comfortable jamming these hands, and sometimes I will call here - flop doesnt hit me, good reg wins nice pot.

I suppose I should be jamming these hands pre flop???

Villain 3bet is a little bit on the large side. There is a lot of math in this thread but I guess the most simple way to go about is to find a 3betting range and then just decide to defend at least 37 percent of that range since villain needs almost 64 percent fold equity to show profit.

Find a r3 bet range multiply it by 0,37 close your eyes and 5bet

If you want to have a calling range it is going to be more complex...

Improva, I would love to hear how you alter your defending range when facing a 3bet OOP. Are you 4betting more hands for value to negate being at a positional disadvantage? Playing a lot tighter too? I can't imagine flatting hands like T9s/A8s/K9s can be good against even a wide, non-linear 3betting range oop. Would it better to add more blockers into our 4bet/fold range than defend wider when OOP?

I think there are too many factors here for me to write a relatively short and good answer.

any thoughts on 4-betting a linear range and not having a calling range when facing a 3-bet OOP? that is my prevailing thought at the moment which I am testing. maybe particularly small 3-bets could make it better to establish a calling range?

As villain's range gets wider I flat with :
(7%) AQs, AJs, ATs, AQo, TT-88, KQs, KJs, KTs
(8%) QJs, AJo, KQo, QTs, A9s, 77
(10%) QTs, ATo, JTs, KJo,
(12%) T9s, A8s, K9s
(15%) ... you should get the idea by now


What specific 3Bet % would you translate these 3Bet Ranges to Improva?

I think he meant the ones in the () are the 3-bet %s.

Equite Fold EQ

0,25 0,52
0,275 0,48
0,3 0,44
0,325 0,4
0,35 0,35


This are the numbers for 5b shove. So if we have 35% vs his value range we need 35% FE.


TT+,AQs+,AQo+=4.7% range

4.7 value range=65%

4.7/65....*100=7.2%

so his 4b range should be at least 7.2%(4.7 is value and 2.5% should be bluffs)

I think he meant the ones in the () are the 3-bet %s.

That is what I have been doing lately. And in position too. But then I flat 3 bets with hands outside the linear 4 bet range while in position (If ATs is the bottom of my linear range, A9s for example). But I recognize I have capped my range and need to play accordingly postflop.