Mid Stakes Shorthanded NL Poker Forums

I'm wondering why OP thinks his perceived range has no flush? Do villain know you 100% check/raise on flop or on turn? Do you 100% check/raise one of those streets?

Was going to ask that also but say OP defends K6s+, Q8s+, J8s+, +w/e else he defends almost all of these have a combo draw or pair to go with the fd. If villains realizes that AND assumes hero ck/r with 100% frequency is another thing. OP what if villains thinks that you think he's not dbl barreling a lot here because of his turn cbet%, because if that were true then he probably wouldn't think you raised with 100% frequency on the flop or turn with all fd's and then may not overbet thinking your range is capped.

I don't think it's a "standard call" on the flop, I think it is a "standard c/r". just because you are "defending passiv" preflop doesn't mean that you have to go into calldown mode, especially if he is rarely dbl barreling. you miss on a lot of value if you c/c

as played easy fold, turn is a thinish call iMo

Yeah I actually considered ch/r here and it might be the better play, but there wasn't a lot of dynamic up to this point. Do you guys still think that ch/r is a good option without dynamic? It's true that I can rep a lot of draws so I might get some light flop and turn peels on bricks.

I'm wondering why OP thinks his perceived range has no flush? Do villain know you 100% check/raise on flop or on turn? Do you 100% check/raise one of those streets?

You are right that I can potentially have some FD in my range here. Hands like T9s, 98s, K9s, etc. could possibly make sense, but I think the fact that he probably expects me to sometimes ch/r on earlier streets, and the fact that this a small portion of my range makes it unlikely that he gives me credit for having a flush that often at all.

Curious how you play KT+, Q9+ and J9+ here? If you say you can have T9s in range and not raise earlier, then what about all suited broadway? Guess depends on your image, but I would say flushes are a bigger part of your perceived range than you think?

Curious how you play KT+, Q9+ and J9+ here? If you say you can have T9s in range and not raise earlier, then what about all suited broadway? Guess depends on your image, but I would say flushes are a bigger part of your perceived range than you think?

Yeah I guess you are right. I would probably be less likely to raise FDs OTF on this board, and also the T gives me a lot more combo draws that I could potentially ch/c again.

Curious how you play KT+, Q9+ and J9+ here? If you say you can have T9s in range and not raise earlier, then what about all suited broadway? Guess depends on your image, but I would say flushes are a bigger part of your perceived range than you think?

What do you guys think about turn play with hands like KJs, QJs? Would you be more likely to ch/r turn or ch/c, given that we probably have implied odds since his river barrel is so high?

This I think makes things close. If villain folds to much, check/raise might be good play. I assume you check/raise with intention of barreling most rivers?

What do you guys think about turn play with hands like KJs, QJs? Would you be more likely to ch/r turn or ch/c, given that we probably have implied odds since his river barrel is so high?

I think a large reason that his river barrel is so high is that he doesn't get to the river with a ton of bluffs (low turn barrel). You still might have decent implied odds if he value bets thin, like if he'll bet AK/AQ on a spade river, but probably don't have a ton of implied odds from getting him to bluff off when the flush hits. On the other hand, given that he's on the button and there are a lot of straight draws on that board, he might have more bluffs than I'm giving him credit for. However, if he has enough turn bluffs that will bluff the river on a spade, he might have enough turn bluffs to just raise the turn and make him fold his equity and take the pot right there instead of playing passively and potentially incurring the cost of folding the river on a blank if he ever bluffs with missed draws.

I'd agree the most logical hands for him to have in his turn barreling range are sets, 2 pair, Ace with a higher kicker, maybe Ace with a lower kicker and draws, but that doesn't mean he can't have things like top pair and draws in his check back range or bottom pair in his 3xbarrel range etc.

We don't want to assume what he can have, we want to assume what he can't have to a certain extent.

yeah, technically he can construct his low frequency barreling range in a number of ways - he can have TP or FD's or even sets in his check back range. But this isn't all that common. The most common way that low turn barrelers' ranges are constructed is that they are value and strong draw heavy. So it's really not a bad assumption to operate on when we have no other information.

You cannot use those stats. The frequencies depends too much on board texture, positions and opponent.

You cannot use those stats. The frequencies depends too much on board texture, positions and opponent.

I agree but don't you think we can at least use them as a guide or not?

I agree but don't you think we can at least use them as a guide or not?

You can assume that he is not super psycotic. But the board texture and positions are way more important. Stop using post flop stats.. unless they are insane.

You can assume that he is not super psycotic. But the board texture and positions are way more important. Stop using post flop stats.. unless they are insane.

even the easy ones like C-bet and fold to c-bet?

So, your hud would look like: VPIP/PFR/3b?

Nevermind, I missunderstood your post. You mean... Don't look at them, unless they have a 100% cbet stat after 200 hands

IMO, all broadway flush draws are a standard check/call, check/call here in order to put some flush draws into your river range, altho' you may differentiate between KQs, KJs, QJs and KTs, QTs, JTs by check/raising KQs, KJs, QJs and check/calling KTs, QTs and JTs because the first group has no showdown value and the second group has showdown value that you can either use to win at showdown by checking if he checks it thru', check/call to bluff catch (unlikely) or check/raise bluff. I also think check/raising KTs, QTs and JTs is probably really bad, because you'd isolate your pair vs a range of Aces Up, Sets and Straights a lot so you'll have less equity vs a nitty bluff catching range than you think you would IMO.

I'm kind of iffy check/raising the combo draws if the turn came a higher broadway, like a K, because I have no clue what we're actually repping at that point. Maybe it's not a huge issue because we still have pretty sick equity vs any non Ace pair barreling off, but I could see villain's getting real curious with Ace rag when we decide to check/raise like a K, Q or J.