blah234
2464 posts
Joined 12/2009
Ok well then just min raise from every position.
Raising Pot UTG makes the pot bigger and therefore takes away from peoples positional advantage and discourages them from flatting you IPO a lot. IF you min raise utg your going to be playing OOP a lot and not getting a lot of money in pre with value hands. So potting OOP makes sense.
from the SB it makes a little more sense to make it small like you said and if someone is folding a lot then it seems great to me but I would assume that you just get flatted a lot.
How does the argument translate to math and EV? Our end game in poker is just to achieve the highest EV. Even if people fold more vs a larger raise does not necessarily mean bigger raise has higher EV. For example, minraising and making villain fold 50% of the times will clearly be higher EV than raising to 3x making villain fold 60% of the times, not considering postflop play.
Preflop raise size i a math question. I never said minraise from every spot is highest EV. We are allowed to have different raise sizes vs different villains as well.
Posted over 1 year ago
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blah234
2464 posts
Joined 12/2009
The turn was checked through
Miss the action. Betting the river is reasonable but I wouldn't bet huge. We can rep a wider range of value hands by betting smaller and we don't rep too many bluffs when we called the flop bet OOP. In this spot though, I think 99 has enough showdown value vs unknown to just try to win at showdown.
Posted over 1 year ago
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Majkel
143 posts
Joined 07/2009
Great video guys!
Question to FoxwoodsFiend
How do you manage to share your time between studying at university and playing poker at high level? When you study to your exams do you play poker at all or just give it up for a while?
Posted over 1 year ago
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Befeltingu
209 posts
Joined 12/2009
Miss the action. Betting the river is reasonable but I wouldn't bet huge. We can rep a wider range of value hands by betting smaller and we don't rep too many bluffs when we called the flop bet OOP. In this spot though, I think 99 has enough showdown value vs unknown to just try to win at showdown.
Ya that makes sense and I like the idea of betting smaller also because my idea of betting that river would be to represent a decently wide value range
Posted over 1 year ago
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Befeltingu
209 posts
Joined 12/2009
How does the argument translate to math and EV? Our end game in poker is just to achieve the highest EV. Even if people fold more vs a larger raise does not necessarily mean bigger raise has higher EV. For example, minraising and making villain fold 50% of the times will clearly be higher EV than raising to 3x making villain fold 60% of the times, not considering postflop play.
Preflop raise size i a math question. I never said minraise from every spot is highest EV. We are allowed to have different raise sizes vs different villains as well.
Everthing you said makes sense. And if those numbers were true with a certain villian then I agree a smaller raise would be better. That would also assume that you would be raising with the same range also right? I guess my approach was that if im going to get flatted x amount then I can make the villian make more of a mistake by raising bigger with a tighter range and if he is still flatting x amount then he will be making more of a mistake and probably set him up for more mistakes post flop also if he still perceives my range to be really wide.
I will think about it more but it seems reasonable to use ur strategy against an unkown and then adjust using my strategy as a counter strategy
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blah234
2464 posts
Joined 12/2009
I will think about it more but it seems reasonable to use ur strategy against an unkown and then adjust using my strategy as a counter strategy
exactly. I don't minraise vs everyone and when I do raise tigher range I will pot raise the SB. Optimizing the EV of our range vs each individual villain is how to crush poker, no matter the stake.
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D3rJack
444 posts
Joined 02/2010
why would people flat a lot of medium pp on the flop? You expect most people to flat 88 on Q9x? This spot is hightly dependent on people's 3 bet calling range but I almost never fire 3 on Q high boards without good equity in 3 bet pots assuming reasonable calling ranges.
Firing how many barrel should almost always be villain dependent. I fired 2 here because this guy seem to call flop wide and fold to turn bet alot.
I guess you 2dBarelled here b/c he will peel on the flop enough weak draws and maybe hands like AJ himself -> regards to your targetrange which you wanna make here fold, you are ahead.
I don`t wanna say that i do not like your 2ndBarell here b/c you are OOP with one further street to go and hence X/C Turn is somewhat difficult, unless special reads are given (such that he does not bluffjam rivers with busted draws after floated them on the turn).
Furthermore you can at least make some PotEQ to fold and hence there is even some protectionvalue.
Just curious if you had similar reasons to 2ndBarell there while making mostly worse hands to fold, or as well some further thoughts?
Just interested in your reasoning...
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blah234
2464 posts
Joined 12/2009
I guess you 2dBarelled here b/c he will peel on the flop enough weak draws and maybe hands like AJ himself -> regards to your targetrange which you wanna make here fold, you are ahead.
I don`t wanna say that i do not like your 2ndBarell here b/c you are OOP with one further street to go and hence X/C Turn is somewhat difficult, unless special reads are given (such that he does not bluffjam rivers with busted draws after floated them on the turn).
Furthermore you can at least make some PotEQ to fold and hence there is even some protectionvalue.
Just curious if you had similar reasons to 2ndBarell there while making mostly worse hands to fold, or as well some further thoughts?
Just interested in your reasoning...
Making worse hands fold or some hands call, get value from some part of range are all flawed thought process. There only equity, your line and EV. Before you get to the river making some hands fold makes no sense since we have equity vs a calling range and if we c/c we have equity vs that betting range.
For example, it could be +EV to inflat the pot with equity disadvantage and no FE if we have skill advantage. Build a pot for when we hit works when villian plays very poorly postflop for example which is why we still raise 22 when a fish limps. Do you call that a value bet or a bluff? or does it matter what you call it.
Posted over 1 year ago
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D3rJack
444 posts
Joined 02/2010
Making worse hands fold or some hands call, get value from some part of range are all flawed thought process. There only equity, your line and EV. Before you get to the river making some hands fold makes no sense since we have equity vs a calling range and if we c/c we have equity vs that betting range.
For example, it could be +EV to inflat the pot with equity disadvantage and no FE if we have skill advantage. Build a pot for when we hit works when villian plays very poorly postflop for example which is why we still raise 22 when a fish limps. Do you call that a value bet or a bluff? or does it matter what you call it.
ehm,
you realized that I have similar thoughts on that and that i think all those phrases (bet only when better can fold or worse can call) are flawed?
B/c your explantation seems that you have not relaized this?
Just assume that b/c you haven`t referred to that particular spot, but have given me some overall input, regards to which I am actually already aware.
Posted over 1 year ago
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blah234
2464 posts
Joined 12/2009
ehm,
you realized that I have similar thoughts on that and that i think all those phrases (bet only when better can fold or worse can call) are flawed?
B/c your explantation seems that you have not relaized this?
Just assume that b/c you haven`t referred to that particular spot, but have given me some overall input, regards to which I am actually already aware.
Then I have no idea what your question is. Your previous post said stuff about target range I fold I'm ahead of , making worse hands fold, given villain specific hand like AJ etc so I thought this is what you're talking about.
About that double barrel, my assumption is that villain gets to the turn with a wide range thus betting is higher EV than giving up that's it. If I don't plan to bet turn then I would of c/f the flop.
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Dublimax
152 posts
Joined 02/2011
blah234
2464 posts
Joined 12/2009
runners23
129 posts
Joined 01/2011
Time Link to 00:27:47
Really like the vid and series guys. But this comment sort of got to me a bit. You guys should consider throwing out a disclaimer first before you tell us we should be deffending that wide to OMPFR from the BTN when were in the BB. I think if you dont play that well oop your not turning a profit oop calling with 68o, 75o and a few other randoms. Im not the best player oop obv, or else i prolly wouldnt have posted this. But not many pple play well oop imo. Not that you have to with those odds but still cautionary is best imo. Alot of viewers hear stuff and just add it into there game blindly and lose money due to it.
Posted over 1 year ago
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blah234
2464 posts
Joined 12/2009
Really like the vid and series guys. But this comment sort of got to me a bit. You guys should consider throwing out a disclaimer first before you tell us we should be deffending that wide to OMPFR from the BTN when were in the BB. I think if you dont play that well oop your not turning a profit oop calling with 68o, 75o and a few other randoms. Im not the best player oop obv, or else i prolly wouldnt have posted this. But not many pple play well oop imo. Not that you have to with those odds but still cautionary is best imo. Alot of viewers hear stuff and just add it into there game blindly and lose money due to it.
If viewers do anything in any coaching video without thinking about it they will most likely be losing money. Definitely don't copy what people say in videos without understanding why.
Posted over 1 year ago
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terp
1996 posts
Joined 01/2008
If viewers do anything in any coaching video without thinking about it they will most likely be losing money. Definitely don't copy what people say in videos without understanding why.
this is really key
i remember like four years ago right after cts' first video, everyone started c/r Axx flops. you could float the c/r with your whole cbetting range....
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