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Party Poker $400.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 1494878
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UTG: $886.20
MP: $814.26
Hero (CO): $515.50
BTN: $684.70
SB: $422.30
BB: $1236.06

Pre Flop: ($6.00) Hero is CO with K K
1 fold, MP raises to $12, Hero raises to $36, 2 folds, BB calls $32, MP calls $24

Flop: ($110.00) 6 5 5 (3 players)
BB checks, MP checks, Hero bets $52.00, BB calls $52, MP calls $52

Turn: ($266.00) 2 (3 players)
BB checks, MP bets $172.00, Hero calls $172, BB folds

River: ($610.00) T (2 players)
MP bets $303.50

Final Pot: $610.00

Alright guys, as Im playing a lot these days, I will post a few hand histories over the next couple of days and would like to hear your opinion. I hope we can get an interesting dicussion started.

MP is playing 21/17 and is raising 25% from this position.
F3b 50%, C3b 25%, AF increases from flop 1.7, over turn 3.8 to river 5.0.
Its only 650 hands.
I have a few notes on him but they dont help much in this specific spot. I saw him taking some unusual lines, his sizing is off from time to time and he seems to be a weird and weakish reg who is definitely on 6+ tables.

BB is a fishy 28/15, very low fold to flop cbet (27), wtsd 24. I dont know much about him as I only have 100 hands on him, but he seems to be the type of player who is playing his draws passively and likes to get to the showdown with a decent made hand. He is certainly no crazy calling station.

My image at the table was aggro. Im playing about 30/25, 3bet 14 and put a lot of pressure on my opponents preflop during that session. I didnt show anything super crazy postflop.

Obviously, my plan was to bet 3 streets and get the money in against the two guys but when he donked the turn, I wasnt 100% sure whats best. I mean, Im only about 125bb deep, its a 3b pot and I have a very strong hand but his turn donk looks suspicious, right?
It looks a lot like he wants to make sure that someone bets the turn as he wants to get in all the money (220bb) against the fish.

What do you guys think? Whats the best plan for me on turn/river?

wether you are able to continue after mps lead at all is down to how good of a player he is. to donk there needs a great understanding of the game, his villains and it is hard to be off balance given his flop-calling-range.

i dont think you should call the turn unless you can see BB calling too light w madehands.
the only way this turn is a call is if you couldnt have called it lol. i mean, if he has worse hands in his range, it is really tough to bluff the river with your remaining stacks his big turnbet left behind.

im not sure wether his betsizing is good or bad, but i think your call is bad given his betsizing

Considering he'd flat his normal 4bet range here to keep the fish in, he's going to have AA, QQ, JJ in his range and I think when he check/call leads here that he clearly has a value hand that he doesn't want to risk being checked thru' if he thinks you Cbet flop, check/behind turn with AK. Once he rivers the T, which is a bad card for us considering it improves the hands he's likely to Cbet flop, lead turn with in my mind, and considering we only called his turn lead (i.e. with the fish behind us we are turning our hand face up) he now knows what are approximate range is on the river (AA-JJ, 5x) I don't think he can value bet worse than KK vs. us and therefore it's probably an infuriating fold on the river.

As far as the turn, I think calling the turn is fine considering the fish is behind us, but if I wanted to stack JJ/TT here I'd consider shoving over the lead because the bad regular is probably going to level himself into thinking that we'd never shove a value hand here with the fish behind us, leads induce bluffs and what else would we do with AK there?

So yeah, basically I think this hand is a huge naked range problem with the fish behind you and once you call the river he's only value betting KK+ (probably AA+ given our blockers) and you should fold. The turn is probably the only street I'd think about playing another way, altho' I don't blame you if you called the river here and got value owned because KK is so damn pretty. Folding there is embarassing as hell and at least calling lets us write it off as a cooler, altho' I think it's a clear fold when you start to think about points of honesty.

wether you are able to continue after mps lead at all is down to how good of a player he is. to donk there needs a great understanding of the game, his villains and it is hard to be off balance given his flop-calling-range.

i dont think you should call the turn unless you can see BB calling too light w madehands.
the only way this turn is a call is if you couldnt have called it lol. i mean, if he has worse hands in his range, it is really tough to bluff the river with your remaining stacks his big turnbet left behind.

im not sure wether his betsizing is good or bad, but i think your call is bad given his betsizing

I see the BB calling too light with worse made hands, thats why I decided to call again. But I agree that the turn call is bad and I wish I had folded given the action.
But if I decide to continue, calling is obviously better than shoving, right?

Uh, saying calling is bad when you have a fish behind you and a regular in front of you who could be leading TT+, 66, 55 for value, which we clearly beat combinatorically, is pretty extreme. I don't think this hand becomes clear at all until the river, unless you disagree with JJ/TT leading for equity elimination vs. you and value vs. the fish.

I see the BB calling too light with worse made hands, thats why I decided to call again. But I agree that the turn call is bad and I wish I had folded given the action.
But if I decide to continue, calling is obviously better than shoving, right?

against a 172$ bet i think shoving is better, against a 100$ bet id rather flat, unless villain cannot fold.. if BB is folding most of his range. if BB is calling wide i'd flat any bet.

well still.. villain is sick good if he has a balanced range here that you could continue against, but if you expect BB to call light and we see you not folding KK.. i doubt there is too much worse in his range to start with. i think most people do not lead light here, because it is reasonable to assume ppl will make mistakes by calling lol

i felt inspired when i saw his big turnbet, bec i think it is so awesome to bet like that with a range full of air.

Uh, saying calling is bad when you have a fish behind you and a regular in front of you who could be leading TT+, 66, 55 for value, which we clearly beat combinatorically, is pretty extreme. I don't think this hand becomes clear at all until the river, unless you disagree with JJ/TT leading for equity elimination vs. you and value vs. the fish.

i think it is pretty clear given MPs betsizing. he shouldnt assume BB being awfully weak in this spot, nor could he be vbetting too light against neither of his villains and for sure not against both at a time.
i'd assume MP being more polarized than not here or going crazy with QQ to get folds from hero, while BB still is behind

Considering he'd flat his normal 4bet range here to keep the fish in, he's going to have AA, QQ, JJ in his range

so you have a fish who cold calls a 3bet and then decide not to 4bet with your premiums when you are 200bb deep with this fish ???

so you have a fish who cold calls a 3bet and then decide not to 4bet with your premiums when you are 200bb deep with this fish ???

Considering we don't need to 4bet to reach a 400bb pot and 4betting risks folding out both the regular and the fish from the pot, yeah I don't really see any reason to 4bet here when it reveals our range to the regular and calling widens our perceived range.

Basically, I don't need to 4bet to stack the fish and I don't want the regular to fold.

@Duffte

I don't think villain's bet size is indicitive of his range nor is his lead indicitive of polarization, I think he's just betting for value and/or sizing his stack for AI on the river and that he's never bluffing here (plus if you think he's polarized here you're implying we should be calling). The only question is whether or not he leads this turn with enough value combinations that we're ahead of, and not knowing exactly how he plays JJ here I think we have to call the turn and fold the river, because once we call the turn we clearly have QQ+, 5x and he's pretty much only betting AA+ for value.

Also, it just occurred to me that back door hearts turned, so shoving the turn is more sensible.

Considering we don't need to 4bet to reach a 400bb pot and 4betting risks folding out both the regular and the fish from the pot, yeah I don't really see any reason to 4bet here when it reveals our range to the regular and calling widens our perceived range.

i dont agree here (regarding not 4B of MP)

given that an aggro guy is 3betting you (which he seem to be doing with like 20% in this situation, because you open looser with a fish in the blinds so i assume he is 3betting wider), i am 4betting here pretty wide for value as well as to re-iso the fish.

1) you dont need to bomb the 4bet, even 72 is ok, the pot is around 150 and they need to call 36. when a fish cold calls 36, he will call this for a huge bloated pot.
2) if Hero shoves (when i 4bet as MP), hell, fine for me. getting in 120bb good is really no bad play. how often do you win 200bb. and its not like the 200bb of the fish are gone. Also, Hero should be willing to gamble a bit more vs you as he wants to get deep with the fish.
3) i rather play a 4bet pot headsup with the fish, than a 3bet pot mway. yes, i want to regular to fold and deny him his chance to play the pot with the fish. the reg will not fold for 72 so maybe a slightly bigger 4bet size is better.

I think you're hugely over estimating the regular and fish's stack off range vs. your 4bet, we don't need to 4bet in order to properly size the pot geometry for stacks in and the chance the regular views us as bluffing here are about shit to none. I think it's right to have no 4bet range here because we're never 4betting as a bluff and calling is better for our perceived range, only taking down a 22bb pot here is really bad.

I really expect MP to 4bet his premiums for value in a situation like that, especially AA and KK and I dont agree that he should flat them. He can still get a lot of value from the fish and he shouldnt worry too much about my 3bet as my range will be really wide in this spot.
I think its perfectly fine to isolate the fish and play a huge pot headsup.

i doubt there is too much worse in his range to start with. i think most people do not lead light here, because it is reasonable to assume ppl will make mistakes by calling lol

Agreed

It is close to impossible for MP to be bluffing and if he is betting worse made hands he is either very good and assumes that you can find a fold with a hand like KK or not really think that much about what he is doing. In both cases a call is the best play since none of them will bet the river with worse.

It is close to impossible for MP to be bluffing and if he is betting worse made hands he is either very good and assumes that you can find a fold with a hand like KK or not really think that much about what he is doing. In both cases a call is the best play since none of them will bet the river with worse.

I don´t like the call on the turn. We have almost no chance to improve - and if MP is "bad enough" to valuebet an overpair on the turn - who says that he doesn´t continue on a blank river? I don´t see us making a good call on the turn if we have no certainty about Villain´s tendencies on the river.

I don´t like the call on the turn. We have almost no chance to improve - and if MP is "bad enough" to valuebet an overpair on the turn - who says that he doesn´t continue on a blank river? I don´t see us making a good call on the turn if we have no certainty about Villain´s tendencies on the river.

I would assume some hand reading at 400nl. Folding the turn is certainly too weak.