Mid Stakes Shorthanded NL Poker Forums

UTG and BTN were both regulars, where UTG was kind of decent, BTN seems as a bad player. Blinds were TAG-fish.

Any comments?

Full Tilt Poker $2/$4 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players

BTN: $618.55
SB: $1574.20
BB: $422.70
UTG: $452.00
MP: $914.00
Hero (CO): $447.20

Pre Flop: ($6.00) Hero is CO with Q J
UTG raises to $14, 1 fold, Hero calls $14, BTN calls $14, 2 folds

Flop: ($48.00) 4 2 5 (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $38, BTN calls $38, UTG folds

Turn: ($124.00) 9 (2 players)
Hero bets $75, BTN calls $75

River: ($274.00) 8 (2 players)
Hero requests TIME, Hero bets $320.20 all in

i would bet bigger like you would with a madehand (turn) if you want to be credible... i doubt the river overshove is making sense, you should be happy to get value at all (if youre ahead).

I think a slightly bigger bet on the turn like 90-100 gives us more fold equity and sets up the river for like 90% pot bet. If the river bricks what cards are you planning on firing a 3rd bullet?

do u think there could be more value in firing turn small to get called by a wider range and then have a better bluffspot on the river? maybe thats more of a general question though.
as played i have a hard time finding a river betsize. i think your like never bluffing here. if my bluffingrange was bigger id like the overbet.

do u think there could be more value in firing turn small to get called by a wider range and then have a better bluffspot on the river? maybe thats more of a general question though.

you want to have more deadmoney to collect when bluffing in general. still betting smaller might be better should it be way more likely to get raises than calls, because your odds to bluff are simply better.


in this situation you have to barrel and betting big is crucial for this hand, because our outs are either finishing him (flush) or hit a Q,J which is a great card to hit for value.
i dont think the plan changes with other holdings such as sets, oesd, overpairs.

you want to have more deadmoney to collect when bluffing in general. still betting smaller might be better should it be way more likely to get raises than calls, because your odds to bluff are simply better.


in this situation you have to barrel and betting big is crucial for this hand, because our outs are either finishing him (flush) or hit a Q,J which is a great card to hit for value.
i dont think the plan changes with other holdings such as sets, oesd, overpairs.

I agree 100%, the small turnbarrel is pretty bad.

you want to have more deadmoney to collect when bluffing in general. still betting smaller might be better should it be way more likely to get raises than calls, because your odds to bluff are simply better.

What do you mean by: more dead money to collect when bluffing? In this hand are you then talking about the turn or river?

in this situation you have to barrel and betting big is crucial for this hand, because our outs are either finishing him (flush) or hit a Q,J which is a great card to hit for value.
i dont think the plan changes with other holdings such as sets, oesd, overpairs.

How often do we bluff when the flush hits? I would said pretty often. Obviously it depends on what range you guys are betting on the turn.

How often do we bluff when the flush hits? I would said pretty often. Obviously it depends on what range you guys are betting on the turn.

That´s why I think he was talking about creating dead money on the turn to take down a big pot on the river.

hm - my intuition tells me that that makes no sense as a generale idea. I could be wrong.

Just to make sure. The idea is: A bigger bet has a higher EV because we will win more money on the next street when we hit or we bluff villain?

that aplies when we know based on the range we give Villain he will call the turn most of the time but will fold to a riverbet almost ever ( with a hand like weak pair + draw). then it makes sense to bloat the pot on the turn to take a bigger pot down on the river.

Stack dependant? Yes. This is the idea on betting bigger on flop and turn when you plan to continue betting either for value or as a bluff on future cards.

If we're planning a one and done, obv we should be simply laying ourselves the best odds we can against our opponents range. On the other hand, if the flop comes like this and we are planning on firing multiple barrels against a range that likely can't stand pressure on a large majority of future streets, then by betting larger we force our opponent to put in a larger amount of dead money with a range he simply can't capitalize his equity with, creating a bigger pot for us to take away later.

Regarding the hand, a few things. I don't want to say too much simply because you classified him only as a bad player. Be more specific; was he bad and passive, calling too much? Was he bad and agressive? Was he unaware of relative hand strength, or just a bad hand reader in general? However, regardless of this his hand is almost certainly weak on this river. He never has AcXc given flop call, and could almost never have KcXc imo especially given our blockers. So why overbet? If he has a weak hand and we want value, simple logic is to bet an amount that simply allows him to click call. He's a bad player, we're not trying to out level him, and even bad players will notice and get scared with 66, 77, and possibly some other bluff catchers here.

And setting up stacks better on the turn is a must imo, because in addition to all the clubs we should be value shoving a queen or a jack, bluff shoving a 3, probably an ace, maybe a 6????? probably not though, and obviously setting up a more reasonable amount to bet on a flush card.

The question is.. how often do we have to win on the river?

He never has AcXc given flop call

This is not correct.

the idea about betting small on the turn was, that his calling range is a lot wider. obv we are creating less dead money, but we create it way more often. and id say all those hands that call a small barrel but not a big one are the most likely ones that fold to a river barrel.
but maybe im just estimating it wrong how his calling range on the turn is affected by our betsize

OK, a bit more background on Villain:

He´s 24/19 over 1.2k hands. He´s pretty aggressive, yet he doesn´t seem to really have a plan what he´s doing, so I kind of struggle to identify a thought pattern behind his lines (maybe sb. can help):

- He raised a 662-flop with KQo when sandwiched between the pfr (UTG) and an overcaller on the BTN.
- He overbet the river with the nuts against a presumably weak range.
- He coldcalled a 3bet pre ip with AK and took a stab on the low ragged flop.
- He c/r a low 2suited flop with AK + fd.
- He cbet flop and c/r turn, c/c river with a weak TP (!!) on a wet board.

Regarding the possibility of him having AcXc, I saw him calling the flop and a 3/4 turn barrel with the nfd ip before (and then overbet-shoving with the nuts when checked to).

His FCB / F2B is 44% on each street, his F3B is 75% (obv. with decreasing sample size on each street), that was why I was fully inclined to bluff good non-club rivers.