Hielko
4352 posts
Joined 07/2008
With the AT on that 832 flop, what do you think of shoving as opposed to clicking it back? Would you bluff some turns if he called your min3bet? Would you also click it back with AK or do you think that would make you pot committed anyway?
Thanks a lot
I would prefer shoving above clicking it back since you should have decent equity a lot vs a calling range, but don't know how FWF sees this. Think shoving AK would be a lot better than AT though for all the times villain has TT-QQ.
Posted over 2 years ago
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Hielko
4352 posts
Joined 07/2008
agree that a call cannot be too bad vs. a good-aggr. player b/c it is such a decent spot to turn weak hands into a bluff.
But one question:
Why didn`t you bet the river somewhat bigger to also rep some bluffs?
Or would you also bluff here with about half PS, if you would ever bluff?
I would bluff the same amount. Not sure if my sizing is optimal, but half pot makes it more attractive for villain to bluffcatch and less attractive to check/raise as a bluff, so that's good for us. But yeah, gives him also better odds on a call when we are bluffing.
Posted over 2 years ago
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Prologion
2079 posts
Joined 03/2010
I would bluff the same amount. Not sure if my sizing is optimal, but half pot makes it more attractive for villain to bluffcatch and less attractive to check/raise as a bluff, so that's good for us. But yeah, gives him also better odds on a call when we are bluffing.
all right, thank you for answering.
The thing that it makes for him C/Raising the river less attractive (less deadmoney to collect, I guess) is indeed very interesting - even did not consider it before^^
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27Maniac
11 posts
Joined 05/2010
Great series so far, really get alot from the foxwoodfiend sweating good regs videos. Got questions on a couple of hands:
A10 facing minreraise on 248 - I feel clicking back these days almost turns our hand face up here, are you really gonna click back sets, 2pairs and overpairs in this spot. I'd expect to get shoved on alot with air and kinda like clicking back to induce this when I flop big but know villain prob has nothing to pay me off with but a levelling shove.
55 in SB - Will you not be putting yourself in alot of tough spots later on 3betting this as the BTN is so likely to call?
Posted over 2 years ago
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PokerPiet
29 posts
Joined 08/2008
in the aces hand on the diamands board, if we call there and give up on a diamand, are we any worried about getting bluffed off our hands by his total bluffs on the flop?
his total combo's of flushdraws that will fold the turn are pretty small anyways, probably like AdJ and some AdT KdJ if he doesnt fold those preflop and always raises em on the flop for a max of 9 combo's. He will also call those hands on T and J turns but thats not bad for us...
I did the math and it is indeed a bigger equity to call and shove non diamand turns against those hands (something like 220 profit against the 165 of getting it in on the flop) So if we think he never bluffraises the flop with air (or never continues on a diamand turn) its better to call and shove turn.
Posted over 2 years ago
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HighOctane
585 posts
Joined 09/2008
DaKaJ
94 posts
Joined 07/2008
Befeltingu
209 posts
Joined 12/2009
Time Link to 00:35:32
seems wierd to C/C w/ TT on the King high board top right table when the spade falls on the turn and then C/f the river when the 8 falls since he would probably not bet an 8 on the turn for value and so I would think he either has Kx a flush or a set and then some floats. Just wondering why you didnt just fold the turn if you plan on folding a river like an 8?
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Hielko
4352 posts
Joined 07/2008
Hielko
4352 posts
Joined 07/2008
seems wierd to C/C w/ TT on the King high board top right table when the spade falls on the turn and then C/f the river when the 8 falls since he would probably not bet an 8 on the turn for value and so I would think he either has Kx a flush or a set and then some floats. Just wondering why you didnt just fold the turn if you plan on folding a river like an 8?
It's obviously not a great spot on the turn, maybe check/folding is better. But you can of course call one street and fold the next even though nothing changes on the board. On the turn it looks like I could have total air that just check/folds, while on the river it is clear that that's not the case. So would expect him to give up with air a decent amount.
Posted over 2 years ago
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DiggerTheDog
696 posts
Joined 09/2008
I mean I am just a microdonkey so take my advice with a grain of salt.
But that KK hand just looks horrible.
For the sake of protecting the weak end of your Sb 3betting range in medium pots - you sacrifice the value of large bets with the strong part of your range. Particularly when villian is not 4betting TT then he actually has alot more 1 pr hands that can actually bluffcatch.
Furthermore - are you really needing to balance on the super- dry boards such as 633 anyway?
So either he does call down alot and you are missing a ton of value or he isnt and a very reasonable alternative is to barrel 2 or 3 sts with your entire range because you believe he cannot call down as much. Thus you can balance by checking thin value cause its he does not call down light and add overcards air with your strong value if you feel you cannot be exploitable on super-dry boards in steal range 3bet pots.
And I remember seeing a video of Balugas - where its ok to be exploitable and have a very narrow value range if you actually have the value range that you represent - because they can still be inelastic to your range anyway and if they arent then you can change in future. ( I hope that accurately reps what he said).
For some reason the timestamp disappeared
bump? no love 
Posted over 2 years ago
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Prologion
2079 posts
Joined 03/2010
Time Link to 00:33:42
I get the reasoning of flatting here a 4bet, when i assume a high Bluff4betrange in this spot.
B/c I am absolutely not used to it , it seems anyway sick to me.
So,
What hands you would in general be inclined to flat here (instead of folding or jamming)?
KQs, AJs, ATs, KJs, , I guess.
AQ, I guess is a too nice 3bet/5bet-jam-hand in such a spot?
What about AJo, KQo...?
What about balancing in this spot?
And what about your flopplan - I guess, you would C/Jam in a high freq. with any BackdoorEQ and not to play only fit or fold?
There are certainly more questions which just don`t come into my mind atm.
Surprisingly that nobody already have asked you many questions about this b/c this strategy seems to be very interesting but also for the most, I guess pretty uncommon and somewhat mystic D:
Posted over 2 years ago
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Befeltingu
209 posts
Joined 12/2009
It's obviously not a great spot on the turn, maybe check/folding is better. But you can of course call one street and fold the next even though nothing changes on the board. On the turn it looks like I could have total air that just check/folds, while on the river it is clear that that's not the case. So would expect him to give up with air a decent amount.
Ok ya that seems fair. Do you take that line a lot in spots like this call one street and then just give up if they fire 2 barrels? I guess you would need a specific read to make the call on the river.
Posted over 2 years ago
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Prologion
2079 posts
Joined 03/2010
Ok ya that seems fair. Do you take that line a lot in spots like this call one street and then just give up if they fire 2 barrels? I guess you would need a specific read to make the call on the river.
I guess,
you did not notice that Villain has betted here 1BB on the turn?
Posted over 2 years ago
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Prologion
2079 posts
Joined 03/2010
Time Link to 00:45:25
I can imagine myself to at least consider here to checkback with my ATo on the QJ5r-Board - just b/c the Board should hit a standard 3bet-Callrange of Villain pretty hard... -> so I can take my EQ with me 1 further street - But i am not sure about this...
For a similar reason, I actually love your plan to C/Jam the KJ-hand with the OESD in a 3betPot, which has appeared later.
Anyways, I am ready with watching the 2ndPart and wanna just say
Thank you to you both - great job and keep on 
Posted over 2 years ago
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