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Villain is 19/16 grinder type but only 4 tabling, is a winner, and definitely capable of adjusting etc. so he's not really a regbot. What does my hand look like here? What does villain's hand look like here? Villain's calling range of my c/ship? Villain's betting range on river? I thought this was an interesting spot to talk about.

Full Tilt Poker $2/$4 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 940686
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

CO: $532.70
BTN: $697.85
Hero (SB): $413.00
BB: $542.00
UTG: $501.40
MP: $831.50

Pre Flop: ($6.00) Hero is SB with 2 CARDS!
3 folds, BTN raises to $8, Hero raises to $32, 1 fold, BTN calls $24

Flop: ($68.00) 8 Q 5 (2 players)
Hero requests TIME, Hero checks, BTN checks

Turn: ($68.00) 6 (2 players)
Hero requests TIME, Hero bets $40, BTN calls $40

River: ($148.00) 5 (2 players)
Hero requests TIME, Hero checks, BTN bets $104, Hero requests TIME, Hero raises to $341 all in

Nobody wants to take a shot at this? lol.

I assume that's Table-ninja time-banking for U right?

yeah

I should not post here because I'm on NL25/NL50 But for learning purposes.. Maybe you can also correct my lines of thinking here.

Since it's a BTN vs blinds war your 3betting range is wider. Because he did not 4bet I would put him on maybe TT/JJ/QQ/AK/AQ/maybe KQ. He could be getting tricky with AA/KK but I will take those out for now since you two have history and thus I'm pretty sure he would have 4bet those.

When he checks flop but calls turn I either put him on a draw (maybe he has the A of clubs) or something with showdown value, again JJ, TT, AQ. His bet in the river for me would mean the same, either a missed draw or something he wants to value bet with, like KQ/AQ.

About the calling range to your ship I'm thinking obviously of the big hands like flushes and maybe a fullhouse with 88, and then I'm thinking that maybe JJ, TT and any Q might call because your hand looks a lot like a bluff, at least to me. If you had AA or a set you would have bet flop since that is a very wet board. Also, because the BTN is playing it passively by checking and calling, if I was the villain I would assume that if you had a big hand you would have value bet yourself the river, since villain does not look like he's gonna bet the river.

Maybe you put him on a missed draw and bluffed that river? If I was the villain I would call with any decent hand there like TT, JJ or a Q!

Some of my thoughts but those are just assumptions since no info about villain.

I'll go in order:

What does my hand look like here?

- Well if you wanted to go for straight value i'd say there is too much to be had on this texture for you to check. Looked like you were giving up on the flop. Maybe not enough equity to bluff with.

What does villain's hand look like here?

- Once villain checks back i'll say he has pocket pair or Ax or even Kx with a club very often. On the turn looks like you might've pick some equity (gs/sd?) and realized villain does not have a strong hand. He will still call one with hands mentioned above.

Villain's betting range on river?

- On the river his betting range for value becomes very narrow. I assume he is checking back pocket pairs and betting most missed clubs? If it's for value his line looks really FOS. I'd assume most Qx hands bet the flop.

Villain's calling range of my c/ship?

- This depends a lot how he views you i think. My first thought was you were giving up this river with bluffs or c/calling with marginal hand you decide not to cbet? Once villain bet he really reps nothing esp. with that sizing and you decided to shove to fold out his missed clubs? Not sure if he folds some weird KQs or QJs he decided to check back?

Im up for further discussion these were just some random thoughts came to my mind.

busy busy atm but I'll get back to this soon, thanks for responding guys

Villain's calling range on the turn is a big club or TP + or medium pp with a club or flopped flush. When he bet the river and his sizing we can eliminate most TP and mid pp.

Really hard for either of you to rep a ton of value hands because flopped checked though. I like the raise all in on the river now that I think about it. Villain has a wiffed club here alot. It's bad idea to run this bluff if you think villain pot controls the flop with TP type of hand though. I would not bet/fold tp here to your line.

@pkr2010: I think you are over-strengthening his flatcalling range here. most people are just getting it in w/TT+ and AK preflop, AQ/AJ and KQ is a good place to start for a flat calling range in general though.

As far as the turn I think he's more likely to have pairs than draws in general, it's not super unlikely that he checks back a club on the flop but if it looks like I'm giving up he's prob going to just bet and take the pot down with a lot of them as well.

Also pkr you say you'd call my ship w/any pair etc. b/c it looks like I"m bluffing b/c I would have value bet the river myself w/my strong hands. I don't think that's always the case if I think I can get the entire stack in by c/r'ing and if most hands that would call a bet would bet themselves (or a high % of them) and he also may bluff etc. It's kinda hard for me to have air here that often. Wouldn't most of my air cbet the flop? So to bluff the river I'd have to bluff the turn w/a hand that was giving up on the flop and then decided to c/ship the river.

If I put him on a missed draw on the river and I was bluffing wouldn't I bet myself?

If common consensus is that I'm bluffing this river b/c I don't have any value hands and that people are calling with any pair, would I know that? Would that make me less likely to be bluffing?

Just kinda rambling at this point but yeah lots of interesting stuff.

If common consensus is that I'm bluffing this river b/c I don't have any value hands and that people are calling with any pair, would I know that? Would that make me less likely to be bluffing?

This will probably depend on the level of thinking that each player is at, and probably more details of your history with him/her.

It is seriously really hard to get a read here. Thinking about it again, you could be bluffing but your line is also consistent with holding 56, the way you bet. Thinking from the primal ABC that's what you should have. Anyways, it's hard, really hard to get a read on this, but again, I think I would call you with my JJ or AQ (and then leave this damn table! No matter what you had! )

I think on that river you can have many hands like AcA,KcK,AcQ,88,QQ,55,56s,79s.
It makes perfect sense to check the flop sometimes with these hands (as i imagine you would c/f some hands on this board as well), then vbet the turn when he checks behind.
On the river, if you wanna go for max value, i think a bet is pretty bad. I mean, sure, hes gonna check behind some PPs and other weak valuehands, but hes gonna vbet any Q for sure, maybe even lighter (depending what he puts you on), and he can bluff a decent amount.
His betsize looks polarizing, but i dont see why he cant bet a Q like that the way the action went. Your c/r-range on the river can easily be pretty balanced as well, provided you dont autocbet every strongish hand on this flop.

At the same time you can be pretty sure he never has a flush, so your bluffing frequency should be pretty high as well. If he thinks your range on the river is very balanced i think he needs to call your raise with most hands hes betting for value.

Hope any of that made sense.

Edit: While a bet on the river (on your part) as a bluff makes most sense, he will also snap it off with many hands, so a c/r guarantees you most FE while still credibly repping a strong hand. Its arguably close wether its more likely for you to check a strong hand on the flop or decide to c/r the river as a bluff.

Ya it's a pretty cool hand!

In general I would expect you to check the flop with a range of hands that have SD value a lot, and some with a club that you don't mind c/r jamming to get it in, or really don't care if it's checked through including AcAx. With hands like TT no clubs or real monsters like XcYc you'd probs cbet? As well as your total airballs too I guess.

The villain's bet on the river seems like a pretty strong hand IMO but not a lot of full houses are in this range. So on the river I'd expect you to think about turning a made hand into a bluff a lot. Having said that, I expect you to have AA-QQ, 66, 88 sometimes and not a lot of air, since you probably expect to be called a lot.

To give some good reads on the situation I think it's pretty important to know your at the table perceived 3bet tendencies and villains defending tendencies.

My current read is that you tried an epic bluff here and villain called with top pair

There wasn't that much of a dynamic really. I may have 3b already but I don't think it was noticeably out of line. I don't expect him to have a super wide range calling preflop or anything. He might but I wouldn't know it.

Ok, then I'll stick with my read that you tried an epic bluff and villain called with top pair .

Don't think you will have a valuehand here very often since you would usually bet the flop, and if the flop goes check/check and you bet the turn you would usually bet the river yourself since villains hand looks very weak/bluffcatcher like, and he will probably check behind the river a lot. And when villain bets river it not going to be with the marginal showdown/bluffcatcher hands, but usually a medium top pair hand (or maybe monster) that's going to think WTF is this; I call.

If you think villain checks the flop behind with AQ/KQ a lot a river xr for value could be sexy, but would expect most villains to bet that a lot on the flop.